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Delivery of Russian gas was stopped by Russia in violation of contract. European gas companies demands $20 billion in compensation. Nobody had incentive to blow

Delivery of Russian gas was stopped by Russia in violation of contract. European gas companies demands $20 billion in compensation. Nobody had incentive to blow up empty pipes except Russia. Of course, Russians used false flag as usual, to blame Ukraine, but Ukraine doesn't hide successful attacks on Russian infrastructure, because Ukraine has legal right to defend itself.

aa-jv 2y ago
>Nobody had incentive to blow up empty pipes except Russia. Nonsense. Biden had a great deal of incentive to destroy that pipeline.
- oneshtein 2y ago
  LOL Biden has no balls to do that.
  - aa-jv 2y ago
    Had. NS2 was almost two years ago. Your current Biden assessment may be correct, but two years ago there was a great deal more lucidity, when he stated that "no matter what, the NS2 pipeline will not be allowed to persist" ..
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Biden had a great deal of incentive to destroy that pipeline. But far too many more obvious counterincentives. Unlike the Ukrainians, NATO/US were smart enough to see that blowing up NS2 would be hugely stupid, providing precisely zero strategic advantage while simply provoking Russia to respond assymetrically (in exactly the same way as it is apparently doing right now). In addition to the huge methane release. So if anything, the standpoint of "incentives" points squarely in the opposite direction (that is, against the idea that the US/NATO must have done it).
  - aa-jv 2y ago
    Your belief in the infallible nobility of NATO belies a vested interest in ignoring its massive, undeniable war crimes, crimes against humanity and violations of human rights at massive scale, as an organization, this century. >Unlike the Ukrainians, NATO/US were smart enough I do not concur with this glib assessment one bit.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      I said absolutely nothing about its "infallible nobility", of course. Or even implying that sentiment.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Wait. Wasn't it Ukraine that blew up the pipeline? I'm all for them defending themselves. Are you saying it was actually Russia that did it? They blew up own pipeline?
- esarbe 2y ago
  There's no actual evidence that Ukraine did it, lest alone solid proof. Russia is a probable candidate.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - calmoo 2y ago
    There is some pretty compelling evidence that it was Ukraine. The CIA even tipped Germany off about the potential saboteurs https://archive.is/dPdoX https://archive.is/dPdoX
    - esarbe 2y ago
      What exactly is the evidence there? I read the article and all I see is hearsay. German investigations found that the Andromeda trail leads to Russia[0]. [0] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/internationales/nord-stream-spur-nach-russland-andromeda-yacht-offenbar-von-scheinfirma-angemietet-10126528.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/internationales/nord-stream-spur...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - gruez 2y ago
        The "investigations" you reference were by German media, whereas the wsj article was allegedly from German authorities. Moreover, while you accuse the wsj article as "hearsay", the same is true for the tagesspiegel you linked. The crux of that article's claim is that the company that rented the yacht had Crimean owners with ties to Russia, but no proof was presented. We're asked to trust the journalists on that, just as we're asked to trust the wsj journalists on the facts of the German authorities' investigation.
nbman102 2y ago
That is a very abbreviated history. There are two pipelines, NS-1 and NS-2, both of which have two pipes each. NS-1 was operational until a turbine had to be repaired in Canada. The bureaucratic process to allow the repair was arduous, but finally it got done and chancellor Scholz did a photo-op in front of the repaired turbine. Then the Russians played coy and came up with counter-bureaucratic reasons why the repaired turbine could not be installed. Presumably to put pressure on Germany, which was afraid of the 2022/2023 winter at the time. Then two pipes of NS-1 and one pipe of NS-2 were blown up. Since no gas was flowing at the time, Russia had no reason to blow up its bargaining chip. Ukraine or the U.S. did have a reason. Russia also delivered gas to Austria through a pipeline that goes through Ukraine and for which Ukraine collected transit fees until this year. Russia didn't shut down or blow up that pipeline. From the point of view of the U.S. and Ukraine it does not make sense to blow up the Austrian pipeline because Austria is neutral anyway, so just let Ukraine collect the transit fees. Germany of course must be pressured to be the second largest financial and weapons supporter for Ukraine, so hey, let's blow up the pipeline of our "ally". Apart from Hersh's "the U.S. did it" theory, the Wall Street Journal recently blamed it on Zalushny. No other theories have emerged, but rest assured that if there were a credible Russia theory the Western press would shout it from the rooftops. Putin has offered multiple times to either open the remaining pipe of NS-2 or to route gas via Turkey: https://www.dw.com/en/putin-offers-europe-gas-through-nord-stream-2-germany-declines/a-63416138 https://www.dw.com/en/putin-offers-europe-gas-through-nord-s...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- oneshtein 2y ago
  Russia had $20 billion reasons to blow up their gas pipelines and blame Ukraine for that.
  - holoduke 2y ago
    You mean vice versa i assume.
probably_wrong 2y ago
While a false flag operation cannot be ruled out, I don't think the case is as clear-cut as you suggest. > Nobody had incentive to blow up empty pipes except Russia. I disagree: Russian gas was the one leverage Russia had over Germany. Blowing the pipeline ensured that Germany wouldn't be able to get out of the conflict quietly - "Germany still receiving Russian gas" would not receive as much condemnation as "Germany repairs Russian gas pipeline". > Ukraine doesn't hide successful attacks on Russian infrastructure, because Ukraine has legal right to defend itself. True, but Ukraine doesn't have a legal right to sabotage the infrastructure of its allies. I live in Germany and I can tell you: that first winter was pretty bad for everyone, with plenty headlines about people who could no longer afford their heating costs. If it had been known that it was Ukraine's doing, popular support for the war would have sunk a lot.
- oneshtein 2y ago
  European countries demand US$20 billion for undelivered gas from Russia[1]. Maybe, $20 billion is pocket money for you, but it's big money for Russia. A false flag operation is much much cheaper. [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/european-countries-demand-us-20-145443365.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/european-countries-demand-us-...
- deanCommie 2y ago
  I wish people took this incident to realize that Germany should be investing in energy independence, the way France had.
  - trmaker103 2y ago
    French nuclear industry maintains links with Russian giant Rosatom: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/03/12/french-nuclear-industry-maintains-links-with-russian-giant-rosatom_6019019_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/03/12/french... What about the U.S., which is always holier than thou? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-nuclear-russia-ohio.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-... The U.S. banned it this year, 2 years after Nordstream was blown up, to the amusement and applause from Nuland etc.
pelasaco 2y ago
> Of course, Russians used false flag as usual, to blame Ukraine, but Ukraine doesn't hide successful attacks on Russian infrastructure, because Ukraine has legal right to defend itself. This is completely wrong. It involved German/Russian infrastructure, and if confirmed, it would rank as the worst terrorist act in the history of the FRG (Germany) since the Munich Olympic Games. In fact, it could, should, or would lead to the activation of Article 5, as one of NATO's members was attacked. BTW from the Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream " In June 2024 German authorities issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national suspected of the sabotage.[13] " This (in German) shed even more lights on that https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ukraine/roman-tscherwinskyj-aeussert-sich-zur-nord-stream-sprengung-110111281.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ukraine/roman-tscherwins...
- oneshtein 2y ago
  So, this is one man, who bought, moved, and then installed 500kg of explosives in 4 places in front of a married couple, right?
  - gruez 2y ago
    >in front of a married couple Is this supposed to imply the story is implausible because the couple wasn't in on the plot and would rat the third guy out? If so, all 3 are suspects and presumably are in on the plot, so this argument falls flat on its face.
    - oneshtein 2y ago
      Only one man is suspect, a married couple is not.
      - gruez 2y ago
        Says who? The DW article says otherwise. >The two other suspects, a married couple who do not have warrants issued in their names, have denied knowing Z. and said that they were on vacation in Bulgaria when the attack took place.

aa-jv 2y ago

>Nobody had incentive to blow up empty pipes except Russia. Nonsense. Biden had a great deal of incentive to destroy that pipeline.

oneshtein 2y ago
LOL Biden has no balls to do that.
- aa-jv 2y ago
  Had. NS2 was almost two years ago. Your current Biden assessment may be correct, but two years ago there was a great deal more lucidity, when he stated that "no matter what, the NS2 pipeline will not be allowed to persist" ..
aguaviva 2y ago
Biden had a great deal of incentive to destroy that pipeline. But far too many more obvious counterincentives. Unlike the Ukrainians, NATO/US were smart enough to see that blowing up NS2 would be hugely stupid, providing precisely zero strategic advantage while simply provoking Russia to respond assymetrically (in exactly the same way as it is apparently doing right now). In addition to the huge methane release. So if anything, the standpoint of "incentives" points squarely in the opposite direction (that is, against the idea that the US/NATO must have done it).
- aa-jv 2y ago
  Your belief in the infallible nobility of NATO belies a vested interest in ignoring its massive, undeniable war crimes, crimes against humanity and violations of human rights at massive scale, as an organization, this century. >Unlike the Ukrainians, NATO/US were smart enough I do not concur with this glib assessment one bit.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    I said absolutely nothing about its "infallible nobility", of course. Or even implying that sentiment.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

Wait. Wasn't it Ukraine that blew up the pipeline? I'm all for them defending themselves. Are you saying it was actually Russia that did it? They blew up own pipeline?

esarbe 2y ago
There's no actual evidence that Ukraine did it, lest alone solid proof. Russia is a probable candidate.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- calmoo 2y ago
  There is some pretty compelling evidence that it was Ukraine. The CIA even tipped Germany off about the potential saboteurs https://archive.is/dPdoX https://archive.is/dPdoX
  - esarbe 2y ago
    What exactly is the evidence there? I read the article and all I see is hearsay. German investigations found that the Andromeda trail leads to Russia[0]. [0] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/internationales/nord-stream-spur-nach-russland-andromeda-yacht-offenbar-von-scheinfirma-angemietet-10126528.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/internationales/nord-stream-spur...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - gruez 2y ago
      The "investigations" you reference were by German media, whereas the wsj article was allegedly from German authorities. Moreover, while you accuse the wsj article as "hearsay", the same is true for the tagesspiegel you linked. The crux of that article's claim is that the company that rented the yacht had Crimean owners with ties to Russia, but no proof was presented. We're asked to trust the journalists on that, just as we're asked to trust the wsj journalists on the facts of the German authorities' investigation.

nbman102 2y ago

That is a very abbreviated history. There are two pipelines, NS-1 and NS-2, both of which have two pipes each. NS-1 was operational until a turbine had to be repaired in Canada. The bureaucratic process to allow the repair was arduous, but finally it got done and chancellor Scholz did a photo-op in front of the repaired turbine. Then the Russians played coy and came up with counter-bureaucratic reasons why the repaired turbine could not be installed. Presumably to put pressure on Germany, which was afraid of the 2022/2023 winter at the time. Then two pipes of NS-1 and one pipe of NS-2 were blown up. Since no gas was flowing at the time, Russia had no reason to blow up its bargaining chip. Ukraine or the U.S. did have a reason. Russia also delivered gas to Austria through a pipeline that goes through Ukraine and for which Ukraine collected transit fees until this year. Russia didn't shut down or blow up that pipeline. From the point of view of the U.S. and Ukraine it does not make sense to blow up the Austrian pipeline because Austria is neutral anyway, so just let Ukraine collect the transit fees. Germany of course must be pressured to be the second largest financial and weapons supporter for Ukraine, so hey, let's blow up the pipeline of our "ally". Apart from Hersh's "the U.S. did it" theory, the Wall Street Journal recently blamed it on Zalushny. No other theories have emerged, but rest assured that if there were a credible Russia theory the Western press would shout it from the rooftops. Putin has offered multiple times to either open the remaining pipe of NS-2 or to route gas via Turkey: https://www.dw.com/en/putin-offers-europe-gas-through-nord-stream-2-germany-declines/a-63416138 https://www.dw.com/en/putin-offers-europe-gas-through-nord-s...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
oneshtein 2y ago
Russia had $20 billion reasons to blow up their gas pipelines and blame Ukraine for that.
- holoduke 2y ago
  You mean vice versa i assume.

probably_wrong 2y ago

While a false flag operation cannot be ruled out, I don't think the case is as clear-cut as you suggest. > Nobody had incentive to blow up empty pipes except Russia. I disagree: Russian gas was the one leverage Russia had over Germany. Blowing the pipeline ensured that Germany wouldn't be able to get out of the conflict quietly - "Germany still receiving Russian gas" would not receive as much condemnation as "Germany repairs Russian gas pipeline". > Ukraine doesn't hide successful attacks on Russian infrastructure, because Ukraine has legal right to defend itself. True, but Ukraine doesn't have a legal right to sabotage the infrastructure of its allies. I live in Germany and I can tell you: that first winter was pretty bad for everyone, with plenty headlines about people who could no longer afford their heating costs. If it had been known that it was Ukraine's doing, popular support for the war would have sunk a lot.

oneshtein 2y ago
European countries demand US$20 billion for undelivered gas from Russia[1]. Maybe, $20 billion is pocket money for you, but it's big money for Russia. A false flag operation is much much cheaper. [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/european-countries-demand-us-20-145443365.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/european-countries-demand-us-...
deanCommie 2y ago
I wish people took this incident to realize that Germany should be investing in energy independence, the way France had.
- trmaker103 2y ago
  French nuclear industry maintains links with Russian giant Rosatom: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/03/12/french-nuclear-industry-maintains-links-with-russian-giant-rosatom_6019019_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/03/12/french... What about the U.S., which is always holier than thou? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-nuclear-russia-ohio.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/climate/enriched-uranium-... The U.S. banned it this year, 2 years after Nordstream was blown up, to the amusement and applause from Nuland etc.

pelasaco 2y ago

> Of course, Russians used false flag as usual, to blame Ukraine, but Ukraine doesn't hide successful attacks on Russian infrastructure, because Ukraine has legal right to defend itself. This is completely wrong. It involved German/Russian infrastructure, and if confirmed, it would rank as the worst terrorist act in the history of the FRG (Germany) since the Munich Olympic Games. In fact, it could, should, or would lead to the activation of Article 5, as one of NATO's members was attacked. BTW from the Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream " In June 2024 German authorities issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national suspected of the sabotage.[13] " This (in German) shed even more lights on that https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ukraine/roman-tscherwinskyj-aeussert-sich-zur-nord-stream-sprengung-110111281.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ukraine/roman-tscherwins...

oneshtein 2y ago
So, this is one man, who bought, moved, and then installed 500kg of explosives in 4 places in front of a married couple, right?
- gruez 2y ago
  >in front of a married couple Is this supposed to imply the story is implausible because the couple wasn't in on the plot and would rat the third guy out? If so, all 3 are suspects and presumably are in on the plot, so this argument falls flat on its face.
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    Only one man is suspect, a married couple is not.
    - gruez 2y ago
      Says who? The DW article says otherwise. >The two other suspects, a married couple who do not have warrants issued in their names, have denied knowing Z. and said that they were on vacation in Bulgaria when the attack took place.