6 ms·

I would love to buy one of the Maruti Suzuki Jimnys. It's been sold in Europe, but you can't get one in Europe anymore because its not complying with arbitrary

I would love to buy one of the Maruti Suzuki Jimnys. It's been sold in Europe, but you can't get one in Europe anymore because its not complying with arbitrary eco-guidelines (Which somehow a G-Wagon, a Defender or a Land Cruiser are). Prices for 50K KM Used Cars are nearly double the price of new ones. Since also LADA isn't on the European market anymore, you can't get a small off-road capable vehicle anymore. Okay, there are no dedicated off-road vehicles anymore, only luxury SUVs that no one can afford and no one would take off road.

medoc 2y ago
There is the Dacia Duster if your off-road needs are not really hardcore.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- alias_neo 2y ago
  Since we're on safety ratings; the Duster gets a 3/5 from Euro NCAP. Many of Dacia's newer models get 1/5, some 2/5, and only the Sandero gets 4/5, their highest score (in this market). In the UK, a Duster starts at £20k for the base model , while something equivalent with a 5 star rating like a Nissan Qashqai or Kia Sportage starts at £30k.
  - ponector 2y ago
    But they compare with Lada Niva. Does it have any stars in EuroNCAP?
    - neoromantique 2y ago
      Lada Niva has a benefit of making sure you don't suffer for long in case of a crash.
    - vasco 2y ago
      The Ladas break down before you get in a crash. Can't get injured if it was parked at the mechanics.
      - torginus 2y ago
        Aren't modern Ladas based on Renault tech (so essentially the same as Dacias)
        vbezhenar 2y ago
        Only Lada Largus which is based on Dacia Logan MCV. There was also Lada Xray based on Dacia Sandero, but it's not produced anymore. Lada Niva is essentially ancient car from 1977 which changed very little since then. It's awesome cheap car with extreme offroad capabilities, -1 star safety and poor reliability. Interesting and unique combination of properties in modern world. There's also Lada Niva Travel which was developed in 1998 with a bit different market orientation. Lada Vesta is most modern Lada development and it's not directly based on Renault tech. Lada Granta is a bit older Lada which is in-house development as well. Those are not 4x4, though. I have no idea whether those cars are sold in Europe. Probably not.
        assusdan 2y ago
        Nivas (both classic/4x4/Legend niva and travel/chevrolet niva) are not based on Renault tech, they've been developed inhouse (with GM help on Travel one)
  - Nux 2y ago
    Yes, but if you look at the euroncap the low score is not for essential safety stuff, it's more because it doesn't have lane assist and other highly optional whistles and bells (in my opinion).
    - GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
      https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/duster/51909 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/duster/51909 Adult Occupant: 70% It's crap.
      - Nux 2y ago
        Not great, not terrible. Better than the likes of Suzuki Swift, Ford Turneo etc.
    - alias_neo 2y ago
      I mean it's not terrible if the price is a concern, even something I'd consider "simple", like a Ford Focus is £30k these days. 70% for the driver is pretty bad though, you'd want much higher safety for the seat that's going to be occupied for 100% of the car's use, and if like myself you have young children you'll want that 5* rating for their safety (even if that includes bells and whistles like lane-exit alerts etc; they can matter when they need to). For the sake of £10k I'd take a 5* safety rated car, likely with a better finish and quality overall, over a 3*, and as much as I'd like to be understanding about budgets, there's plenty of reliable, high-quality, safe cars on the used market for much less than their new-price. Is there any _good_ reason to buy a mediocre car new for £20k, over a £40k+ car with a few years on it for £20k? I'm asking genuinely because I don't know, I'd buy the used car every time. EDIT: Typos
      - Nux 2y ago
        Agreed. If you're just non-milionaire regular Joe a second hand great car can be cheaper than a new mediocre one.
      - hulitu 2y ago
        > and if like myself you have young children you'll want that 5* rating for their safety But don't forget to put the children in child seats appropiate for their age. Else the 5* will become 0*.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dav43 2y ago
I would love one of these too. However, being in Singapore I was not in position to drop 152k (SGD) or 113k (USD)[0] on one. [0] https://www.sgcarmart.com/new_cars/newcars_listing.php?MOD=Suzuki+Jimny&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_UG4CviJ3aIYiWe8Ha85DNxgmFn&gclid=Cj0KCQiAi_G5BhDXARIsAN5SX7rr_ip6704W4w34bYjdHagh-ZL_9vxW8-mKxxiA-maLavUTA2vW-rEaAr1oEALw_wcB https://www.sgcarmart.com/new_cars/newcars_listing.php?MOD=S...
n-i-m-a 2y ago
Fiat Panda 4x4 isn't a bad off-road option.
- namdnay 2y ago
  I don't believe it's being built anymore - the target audience go for Dusters
  - w4rh4wk5 2y ago
    Yes, the current Fiat Panda Cross is no longer 4x4. Wanted to buy one new, but they aren't available anymore here in Austria.
  - vasco 2y ago
    Dacia duster 4x4 is nowadays answer indeed
    - xattt 2y ago
      Good news!
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  Jimny is in a completely different league than Panda 4x4, not even remotely close. Ladder-frame chassis, no center differential, beam axles, double-range gearbox — none of that typically applies to SUVs (especially cheap ones)
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    With modern horsepower levels, modern transmissions and modern stiff body/chassis that stuff doesn't matter nearly as much these days as it did 30yr ago. A modern crossover with ~200-300hp and whatever stupid low first gear they gave it in it's 8-10spd transmission typically has the same 0mph torque as whatever 90s meme-mobile the fanboys are all drooling over at any given minute. Modern unibody chassis are rigid enough ladder frame doesn't really matter. Suspensions mostly get mounted to thicker subframes anyway. Modern clutched center diffs are typically capable of transmitting more power and torque than you have traction to make use of (even with real tires and sometimes chains, trust me I've tried). The biggest hurdle is that any given model may or may not be neutered in software. Unless the particular vehicle in question has some mode you can put it in to tell it that a little tire spin is fine all the electronic nannies are gonna flip the F out because what works well in sloppy off road conditions is pretty much the exact opposite of what's ideal for preventing some Karen who's got her Gingerbread (gotta pick a winter seasonal flavor for this comparison) latte in one hand and the steering wheel in another from getting ever so slightly sideways in the snow dusted parking lot. This has the hilarious side effect of resulting in "off road" and "sporty rally car" trim AWD subcompact SUVs and small cars running circles around the "soccer mom trim" versions of "proper" SUVs (in real situations, not sand on the beach or parking in a muddy field stuff) because while the latter has a more impressive hardware stack it's software stack won't let it actually use it.
runeks 2y ago
> [...] its not complying with arbitrary eco-guidelines [...] Anyone know what these are?
- gregoriol 2y ago
  "arbitrary" means the poster doesn't know what there is actually, but wants to blame EU anyway
  - jojobas 2y ago
    Any rule that allows G600s and disallows Jimnys is arbitrary. The G600 doesn't become any more eco-friendly if you also sell an electric car.
    - HPsquared 2y ago
      It's a regulation which is, let's say, "mindful of social hierarchy".
    - vultour 2y ago
      Mercedes does not make a G600. If you're not talking about Mercedes then you should specify a manufacturer because I can't figure out what car you mean.
      - jojobas 2y ago
        Nice nitpick. For you effort you get to choose between GLS600 (13.7l/100km) and AMG G63 (14.7l/100km).
    - theluketaylor 2y ago
      It's not arbitrary and it's not just CO2. The Euro 6 and upcoming 7 standards also test for carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxide, and particulates from the tailpipe, brakes, and tires. The Jimny couldn't pass on those and Suzuki decided it wasn't worth the price of compliance to add things like gas particulate filters and change the brake pad material.
merpkz 2y ago
But Suzuki Jimny is still being sold in Europe. Sure it's a bit pricy, but so are all cars these days
- gorbypark 2y ago
  I believe that the Jimny is only sold as a "commercial" vehicle now, which in most EU countries precludes you from actually buying one unless you are a company (probably being sold to farmers and etc). At least, this is the case in Spain. I think it's to dodge some sort of emissions regulations, I guess commercial vehicles are at a lower standard.
karolist 2y ago
Eco guidelines apply to manufacturer's fleet sales as a whole, meaning a larger manufacturer which makes EVs and eco friendly ICE variants has the "budget" to offer models that are not eco friendly, such as your examples. Suzuki doesn't have offers on the market that would offset the Jimny's pollution so they can't sell it anymore.
Propelloni 2y ago
I guess it is because of EU fleet-wide CO2 averages. From next year on fleets must be below 93 g of CO2 per kilometer or the manufacturer is fined. Suzuki has a very small fleet without any real low-emission cars, thus struggles to get below this new average. Combine this with the EU Jimny's four-cyclinder 1.5 l engine terrible gas mileage and it is easy to see why Suzuki is pulling this car (and many others) from the EU market. That's why critics say that the fleet-wide CO2 average regulation favors manufacturer with large fleets. Since actual sales number do not factor into the equation low or no emission vehicles average out the wasteful SUVs and other big cars on a fleet average on paper only. I'm not completely against fleet-wide averages, but I would like to see a competition. The fleet with the lowest average CO2 emission per kg sets the lower bound for a given year and all others are fined. This would cause a very fast scramble (just to catch up with Tesla, Jaguar, and Honda) and level the playing field for smaller manufacturers.
- Propelloni 2y ago
  It appears volume is somewhat accounted for: https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/co2-performance-of-new-passenger https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/co2-perform... But only in the sense that manufacturers are pooled together to reach a certain volume and very small manufacturers are basically excluded from the regulation.
- jojobas 2y ago
  The engine is beside the point, it's the square unaerodynamic shape that's penalized. This averaging doesn't make any sense, they allow a G600 (13l/100km) while disallowing the 7l/100km Jimny.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > This averaging doesn't make any sense, they allow a G600 (13l/100km) while disallowing the 7l/100km Jimny Who do you think lobbies the EU ? /s
  - Propelloni 2y ago
    Join us in the chorus to get rid of fleet-averages ;) The crux, however, is that nobody is allowing or disallowing anything. Suzuki has made the choice to withdraw the Jimny in light of the fines, while Mercedes-Benz made the choice to keep the G600 available despite the fines. Consider, Mercedes-Benz has many cars, esp. Smarts and EVs, in their fleet that significantly lower the fleet average to around 110 g CO2/km. Suzuki, with a small portfolio of ICE cars, in comparison, hovers somewhere 115 g CO2/km (all from the link above). MB is a higher-margin shop, its cars, esp. the G600, are much more expensive then Suzuki's, so MB opts to shoulder the (lower) fine, while Suzuki does not. I can't really blame Suzuki on this and I'm looking forward to the Toyota-Suzuki co-op on EVs.
speerer 2y ago
I just want to interject that "50K KM" was fun to parse out. I like the way two conventions collided here. 50Mm would have been correct, but confusing.50MM more so.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  To be fair, 'kk' is often used as an abbreviation for million in some countries.
  - speerer 2y ago
    Interesting - I hadn't heard that one. I hope I wasn't being unfair, and I certainly didn't mean to criticise.
    - justsomehnguy 2y ago
      I sometimes see kk on the interwebs when writing the full numbers doesn't make sense ie too many zeroes or to avoid the accidental confusion between k and M.
- Hendrikto 2y ago
  Are you American? As a European, I did not even think twice about this. Kilometers (km) is how we measure distance. 1000 km = 1k km, not 1Mm (nobody ever uses that), so it follows that 50000 km = 50k km.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tecleandor 2y ago
They sold for a while the "commercial vehicle version" (Jimny Pro) that removed the two seats in the back. There is a "Jimny Horizon" on a limited edition only sold in Germany and quite expensive. Until the arrival of the rumored hybrid or electric versions, there isn't anything like that :(
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
> there are no dedicated off-road vehicles anymore, only luxury SUVs that no one can afford and no one would take off road. I saw a classic Willys MB -- an original Jeep -- the other day, and it really brought home to me how far modern "SUV"s have strayed from their roots. It was shockingly small, and open, and, yes, dangerous for modern roads, but also fun-looking. It would be at home next to a tuk-tuk.
potato3732842 2y ago
>Which somehow a G-Wagon, a Defender or a Land Cruiser are Makes sense in a sort of perverse way when you think about who buys what and who votes for what.
wodenokoto 2y ago
You're not getting a Jimny for 8k USD and you are not getting a 5-star crash test rating with one either. But it is cute AF! It is for sale and also available for private leasing in Denmark. So not dropped in all of Europe.

medoc 2y ago

There is the Dacia Duster if your off-road needs are not really hardcore.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alias_neo 2y ago
Since we're on safety ratings; the Duster gets a 3/5 from Euro NCAP. Many of Dacia's newer models get 1/5, some 2/5, and only the Sandero gets 4/5, their highest score (in this market). In the UK, a Duster starts at £20k for the base model , while something equivalent with a 5 star rating like a Nissan Qashqai or Kia Sportage starts at £30k.
- ponector 2y ago
  But they compare with Lada Niva. Does it have any stars in EuroNCAP?
  - neoromantique 2y ago
    Lada Niva has a benefit of making sure you don't suffer for long in case of a crash.
  - vasco 2y ago
    The Ladas break down before you get in a crash. Can't get injured if it was parked at the mechanics.
    - torginus 2y ago
      Aren't modern Ladas based on Renault tech (so essentially the same as Dacias)
      - vbezhenar 2y ago
        Only Lada Largus which is based on Dacia Logan MCV. There was also Lada Xray based on Dacia Sandero, but it's not produced anymore. Lada Niva is essentially ancient car from 1977 which changed very little since then. It's awesome cheap car with extreme offroad capabilities, -1 star safety and poor reliability. Interesting and unique combination of properties in modern world. There's also Lada Niva Travel which was developed in 1998 with a bit different market orientation. Lada Vesta is most modern Lada development and it's not directly based on Renault tech. Lada Granta is a bit older Lada which is in-house development as well. Those are not 4x4, though. I have no idea whether those cars are sold in Europe. Probably not.
      - assusdan 2y ago
        Nivas (both classic/4x4/Legend niva and travel/chevrolet niva) are not based on Renault tech, they've been developed inhouse (with GM help on Travel one)
- Nux 2y ago
  Yes, but if you look at the euroncap the low score is not for essential safety stuff, it's more because it doesn't have lane assist and other highly optional whistles and bells (in my opinion).
  - GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
    https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/duster/51909 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/duster/51909 Adult Occupant: 70% It's crap.
    - Nux 2y ago
      Not great, not terrible. Better than the likes of Suzuki Swift, Ford Turneo etc.
  - alias_neo 2y ago
    I mean it's not terrible if the price is a concern, even something I'd consider "simple", like a Ford Focus is £30k these days. 70% for the driver is pretty bad though, you'd want much higher safety for the seat that's going to be occupied for 100% of the car's use, and if like myself you have young children you'll want that 5* rating for their safety (even if that includes bells and whistles like lane-exit alerts etc; they can matter when they need to). For the sake of £10k I'd take a 5* safety rated car, likely with a better finish and quality overall, over a 3*, and as much as I'd like to be understanding about budgets, there's plenty of reliable, high-quality, safe cars on the used market for much less than their new-price. Is there any _good_ reason to buy a mediocre car new for £20k, over a £40k+ car with a few years on it for £20k? I'm asking genuinely because I don't know, I'd buy the used car every time. EDIT: Typos
    - Nux 2y ago
      Agreed. If you're just non-milionaire regular Joe a second hand great car can be cheaper than a new mediocre one.
    - hulitu 2y ago
      > and if like myself you have young children you'll want that 5* rating for their safety But don't forget to put the children in child seats appropiate for their age. Else the 5* will become 0*.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dav43 2y ago

I would love one of these too. However, being in Singapore I was not in position to drop 152k (SGD) or 113k (USD)[0] on one. [0] https://www.sgcarmart.com/new_cars/newcars_listing.php?MOD=Suzuki+Jimny&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_UG4CviJ3aIYiWe8Ha85DNxgmFn&gclid=Cj0KCQiAi_G5BhDXARIsAN5SX7rr_ip6704W4w34bYjdHagh-ZL_9vxW8-mKxxiA-maLavUTA2vW-rEaAr1oEALw_wcB https://www.sgcarmart.com/new_cars/newcars_listing.php?MOD=S...

n-i-m-a 2y ago

Fiat Panda 4x4 isn't a bad off-road option.

namdnay 2y ago
I don't believe it's being built anymore - the target audience go for Dusters
- w4rh4wk5 2y ago
  Yes, the current Fiat Panda Cross is no longer 4x4. Wanted to buy one new, but they aren't available anymore here in Austria.
- vasco 2y ago
  Dacia duster 4x4 is nowadays answer indeed
  - xattt 2y ago
    Good news!
alexey-salmin 2y ago
Jimny is in a completely different league than Panda 4x4, not even remotely close. Ladder-frame chassis, no center differential, beam axles, double-range gearbox — none of that typically applies to SUVs (especially cheap ones)
- potato3732842 2y ago
  With modern horsepower levels, modern transmissions and modern stiff body/chassis that stuff doesn't matter nearly as much these days as it did 30yr ago. A modern crossover with ~200-300hp and whatever stupid low first gear they gave it in it's 8-10spd transmission typically has the same 0mph torque as whatever 90s meme-mobile the fanboys are all drooling over at any given minute. Modern unibody chassis are rigid enough ladder frame doesn't really matter. Suspensions mostly get mounted to thicker subframes anyway. Modern clutched center diffs are typically capable of transmitting more power and torque than you have traction to make use of (even with real tires and sometimes chains, trust me I've tried). The biggest hurdle is that any given model may or may not be neutered in software. Unless the particular vehicle in question has some mode you can put it in to tell it that a little tire spin is fine all the electronic nannies are gonna flip the F out because what works well in sloppy off road conditions is pretty much the exact opposite of what's ideal for preventing some Karen who's got her Gingerbread (gotta pick a winter seasonal flavor for this comparison) latte in one hand and the steering wheel in another from getting ever so slightly sideways in the snow dusted parking lot. This has the hilarious side effect of resulting in "off road" and "sporty rally car" trim AWD subcompact SUVs and small cars running circles around the "soccer mom trim" versions of "proper" SUVs (in real situations, not sand on the beach or parking in a muddy field stuff) because while the latter has a more impressive hardware stack it's software stack won't let it actually use it.

runeks 2y ago

> [...] its not complying with arbitrary eco-guidelines [...] Anyone know what these are?

gregoriol 2y ago
"arbitrary" means the poster doesn't know what there is actually, but wants to blame EU anyway
- jojobas 2y ago
  Any rule that allows G600s and disallows Jimnys is arbitrary. The G600 doesn't become any more eco-friendly if you also sell an electric car.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    It's a regulation which is, let's say, "mindful of social hierarchy".
  - vultour 2y ago
    Mercedes does not make a G600. If you're not talking about Mercedes then you should specify a manufacturer because I can't figure out what car you mean.
    - jojobas 2y ago
      Nice nitpick. For you effort you get to choose between GLS600 (13.7l/100km) and AMG G63 (14.7l/100km).
  - theluketaylor 2y ago
    It's not arbitrary and it's not just CO2. The Euro 6 and upcoming 7 standards also test for carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxide, and particulates from the tailpipe, brakes, and tires. The Jimny couldn't pass on those and Suzuki decided it wasn't worth the price of compliance to add things like gas particulate filters and change the brake pad material.

merpkz 2y ago

But Suzuki Jimny is still being sold in Europe. Sure it's a bit pricy, but so are all cars these days

gorbypark 2y ago
I believe that the Jimny is only sold as a "commercial" vehicle now, which in most EU countries precludes you from actually buying one unless you are a company (probably being sold to farmers and etc). At least, this is the case in Spain. I think it's to dodge some sort of emissions regulations, I guess commercial vehicles are at a lower standard.

karolist 2y ago

Eco guidelines apply to manufacturer's fleet sales as a whole, meaning a larger manufacturer which makes EVs and eco friendly ICE variants has the "budget" to offer models that are not eco friendly, such as your examples. Suzuki doesn't have offers on the market that would offset the Jimny's pollution so they can't sell it anymore.

Propelloni 2y ago

I guess it is because of EU fleet-wide CO2 averages. From next year on fleets must be below 93 g of CO2 per kilometer or the manufacturer is fined. Suzuki has a very small fleet without any real low-emission cars, thus struggles to get below this new average. Combine this with the EU Jimny's four-cyclinder 1.5 l engine terrible gas mileage and it is easy to see why Suzuki is pulling this car (and many others) from the EU market. That's why critics say that the fleet-wide CO2 average regulation favors manufacturer with large fleets. Since actual sales number do not factor into the equation low or no emission vehicles average out the wasteful SUVs and other big cars on a fleet average on paper only. I'm not completely against fleet-wide averages, but I would like to see a competition. The fleet with the lowest average CO2 emission per kg sets the lower bound for a given year and all others are fined. This would cause a very fast scramble (just to catch up with Tesla, Jaguar, and Honda) and level the playing field for smaller manufacturers.

Propelloni 2y ago
It appears volume is somewhat accounted for: https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/co2-performance-of-new-passenger https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/co2-perform... But only in the sense that manufacturers are pooled together to reach a certain volume and very small manufacturers are basically excluded from the regulation.
jojobas 2y ago
The engine is beside the point, it's the square unaerodynamic shape that's penalized. This averaging doesn't make any sense, they allow a G600 (13l/100km) while disallowing the 7l/100km Jimny.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > This averaging doesn't make any sense, they allow a G600 (13l/100km) while disallowing the 7l/100km Jimny Who do you think lobbies the EU ? /s
- Propelloni 2y ago
  Join us in the chorus to get rid of fleet-averages ;) The crux, however, is that nobody is allowing or disallowing anything. Suzuki has made the choice to withdraw the Jimny in light of the fines, while Mercedes-Benz made the choice to keep the G600 available despite the fines. Consider, Mercedes-Benz has many cars, esp. Smarts and EVs, in their fleet that significantly lower the fleet average to around 110 g CO2/km. Suzuki, with a small portfolio of ICE cars, in comparison, hovers somewhere 115 g CO2/km (all from the link above). MB is a higher-margin shop, its cars, esp. the G600, are much more expensive then Suzuki's, so MB opts to shoulder the (lower) fine, while Suzuki does not. I can't really blame Suzuki on this and I'm looking forward to the Toyota-Suzuki co-op on EVs.

speerer 2y ago

I just want to interject that "50K KM" was fun to parse out. I like the way two conventions collided here. 50Mm would have been correct, but confusing.50MM more so.

HPsquared 2y ago
To be fair, 'kk' is often used as an abbreviation for million in some countries.
- speerer 2y ago
  Interesting - I hadn't heard that one. I hope I wasn't being unfair, and I certainly didn't mean to criticise.
  - justsomehnguy 2y ago
    I sometimes see kk on the interwebs when writing the full numbers doesn't make sense ie too many zeroes or to avoid the accidental confusion between k and M.
Hendrikto 2y ago
Are you American? As a European, I did not even think twice about this. Kilometers (km) is how we measure distance. 1000 km = 1k km, not 1Mm (nobody ever uses that), so it follows that 50000 km = 50k km.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tecleandor 2y ago

They sold for a while the "commercial vehicle version" (Jimny Pro) that removed the two seats in the back. There is a "Jimny Horizon" on a limited edition only sold in Germany and quite expensive. Until the arrival of the rumored hybrid or electric versions, there isn't anything like that :(

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago

> there are no dedicated off-road vehicles anymore, only luxury SUVs that no one can afford and no one would take off road. I saw a classic Willys MB -- an original Jeep -- the other day, and it really brought home to me how far modern "SUV"s have strayed from their roots. It was shockingly small, and open, and, yes, dangerous for modern roads, but also fun-looking. It would be at home next to a tuk-tuk.

potato3732842 2y ago

>Which somehow a G-Wagon, a Defender or a Land Cruiser are Makes sense in a sort of perverse way when you think about who buys what and who votes for what.

wodenokoto 2y ago

You're not getting a Jimny for 8k USD and you are not getting a 5-star crash test rating with one either. But it is cute AF! It is for sale and also available for private leasing in Denmark. So not dropped in all of Europe.