5 ms·

Yeah, starting to think we're getting screwed in the U.S. I kind of think if more people in the U.S. knew what the rest of the world were paying for cars they

Yeah, starting to think we're getting screwed in the U.S. I kind of think if more people in the U.S. knew what the rest of the world were paying for cars they might take up arms.

OccamsMirror 2y ago
Same here in Australia. We also have a 5% tariff, and an additional 33% on so called "luxury cars", even though we don't have a car industry anymore.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  We still have the tariff? Fucks sake shitty Australian governments on both sides. How long have Holden and Ford been gone now? Seven years!
  - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    Apparently the import tariffs on cars is gone, primarily due to free trade agreements. However, the luxury car tax still applies to cars over the following values (retail cost inclusive of GST, customs, delivery): - $91,387 for fuel-efficient vehicles - $80,567 for others And the 33% tax applies to the value of the car above the threshold. I have much less of a problem with that arrangement.
    - OccamsMirror 2y ago
      Do you have a source for the 5% tariff being removed? A quick Google search didn't yield any definitive results for me.
      - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        The tariff doesn't seem to be removed, but it doesn't apply to suppliers in countries covered by free trade agreements. I was careless in my reading and writing. Source: https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-per-cent-of-new-cars-already-have-zero-tariff/2018-01-05/68578.html https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-pe...
- grecy 2y ago
  The luxury car tax is such a scam. There’s no luxury boat tax. No luxury plane tax, no luxury watch or diamond or pool or McMansion tax.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >The luxury car tax is such a scam. It's just another tax on the working class. ~40% income tax, then on what's left you pay another ~20% VAT, then some luxury tax on top of that because how dare you afford more than bread and water you filthy feudal lord? Billionaires who buy actual luxuries have a plethora of avenues of avoiding any kind of luxury taxes. Why do you think Monaco exists? Or Dubai?
mdasen 2y ago
The thing is that cheap cars don't sell well in the US. Are you buying a Nissan Versa for $18k? Are you willing to drive a manual transmission to save $1,500? Car companies have tried selling cheaper cars in the US. The Suzuki Dzire is 152" long. A Nissan Versa is 177" long - more than 2 feet longer. Toyota pulled the Yaris from the US market because of poor sales (despite being a well regarded car as a rebadged Mazda2; 171" long). The Suzuki Dzire is the same length as the smallest Mini Cooper - but without the sports-car appeal. It'll do 0-60 in 12 seconds (14 seconds if you want an automatic). Americans want cars that can do 0-60 in half that time. Companies have attempted to bring cheaper and smaller vehicles to the US, but Americans won't buy them. Even today, Americans will spend an extra $5,000-10,000 to get an SUV. Americans complain non-stop about gas prices, but proceed to buy vehicles that guzzle gas. The average new car price in the US is over $47,000 - way above what you'd pay for a loaded Toyota Camry. Americans don't want a Suzuki Dzire. They want a pickup truck with all the luxury trimmings. Part of the cost of US cars is regulatory compliance. As the article notes, this was tested by Global NCAP which tests cars from markets with weak or non-existent regulations. Part of it is going to be the cost of labor or import tariffs. Mexico has lower wages than the US, but part of USMCA/NAFTA trade agreement means that their auto industry wages are a lot closer to US/Canada wages. You aren't going to be able to build them in India and import them to the US without facing tariffs. Part of it is that Americans simply don't want a cheap car. I totally get where you're coming from because I don't want to spend a lot on a car. I also want an iPhone mini. People continually say that a small phone would be a big hit. Companies have tried and failed. There are so many cheaper options for cars in the US and Americans are spending nearly fifty grand instead. And when you start talking about bringing a Suzuki Dzire up to US regulations, import taxes, distribution costs (and the American wages you need to pay to everyone importing, transporting, and selling your cars here), equipment you want, etc. does that $8,000 vehicle look more like $14,000? And then at that price, do you want something that's 80hp and 0-60 in 14 seconds or would you rather spend up for a Toyota Corolla and get a much larger car with a lot more power and an amazing track record? Toyota sold the Yaris for $16,000, but people didn't want it. We're talking about a car that Car and Driver gave 9.5/10. It was a really good car at a great price and Americans wouldn't buy it. It's easy to think "I'd love an $8,000 car" when you aren't/can't seriously consider buying it. But maybe we're similar and we'd like more affordable cars and are willing to go with something basic. But most Americans wouldn't be up in arms for this $8,000 car. They're spending double what many great cars cost and they'd rather moan about the cost of gas than drive something efficient. Hell, hybrids today like the Civic or Prius get better 0-60 times than the sports sedans from my youth - but that doesn't matter. Americans will moan about paying for stuff, but the second that you suggest they buy something efficient or affordable or make any compromise and they'll find any reason not to.
darth_avocado 2y ago
It’s more expensive because you pay US wages to make the car. PPP is the real reason why it’s cheaper to build in a country where a $1000/month is a really good salary that will afford you a comfortable lifestyle on 1 income.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Purchasing Power is not enough to tip the scales. The reason costs are low is because of scale and automation. Suzuki exports it's India manufactured cars and components across Asia and Africa which helps drive costs down drastically, and leadership make a strategic decision to pivot towards automation. Maruti Suzuki has been heavily automated for almost 2 decades now, especially after the union killed a plant manager and burnt down the Manesar factory in 2012 [2] Already in 2017 Maruti Suzuki had 2000 installed units for 10000 employees [0], but the US still had around 1300 installed units for 10000 employees in 2021 [1]. Also, salaries in Maruti Suzuki Manesar and Gurgaon (the flagship factories in suburbs of Delhi) are similar to Dacia's in Romania and the CoL in Delhi NCR is comparable to Eastern Europe in general, yet similar cars in Europe will cost around $10-15k. [0] - https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Robots-sweep-across-Maruti-Suzukis-shop-floor.html https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Ro... [1] - https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-car-industry-ranks-7th-worldwide https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-... [2] - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-workers-in-deadly-haryana-riot-10-facts-1668232 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-wor...
mrguyorama 2y ago
If there is one thing Americans show they are amazing at, it's insisting that the simple improvements that Europe has, like affordable small cars, or socialized (or better public/private like germany has), or trains, or consumer protections, Are magically impossible here.

Yeah, starting to think we're getting screwed in the U.S. I kind of think if more people in the U.S. knew what the rest of the world were paying for cars they might take up arms.

OccamsMirror 2y ago

Same here in Australia. We also have a 5% tariff, and an additional 33% on so called "luxury cars", even though we don't have a car industry anymore.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
We still have the tariff? Fucks sake shitty Australian governments on both sides. How long have Holden and Ford been gone now? Seven years!
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  Apparently the import tariffs on cars is gone, primarily due to free trade agreements. However, the luxury car tax still applies to cars over the following values (retail cost inclusive of GST, customs, delivery): - $91,387 for fuel-efficient vehicles - $80,567 for others And the 33% tax applies to the value of the car above the threshold. I have much less of a problem with that arrangement.
  - OccamsMirror 2y ago
    Do you have a source for the 5% tariff being removed? A quick Google search didn't yield any definitive results for me.
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      The tariff doesn't seem to be removed, but it doesn't apply to suppliers in countries covered by free trade agreements. I was careless in my reading and writing. Source: https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-per-cent-of-new-cars-already-have-zero-tariff/2018-01-05/68578.html https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-pe...
grecy 2y ago
The luxury car tax is such a scam. There’s no luxury boat tax. No luxury plane tax, no luxury watch or diamond or pool or McMansion tax.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >The luxury car tax is such a scam. It's just another tax on the working class. ~40% income tax, then on what's left you pay another ~20% VAT, then some luxury tax on top of that because how dare you afford more than bread and water you filthy feudal lord? Billionaires who buy actual luxuries have a plethora of avenues of avoiding any kind of luxury taxes. Why do you think Monaco exists? Or Dubai?

mdasen 2y ago

The thing is that cheap cars don't sell well in the US. Are you buying a Nissan Versa for $18k? Are you willing to drive a manual transmission to save $1,500? Car companies have tried selling cheaper cars in the US. The Suzuki Dzire is 152" long. A Nissan Versa is 177" long - more than 2 feet longer. Toyota pulled the Yaris from the US market because of poor sales (despite being a well regarded car as a rebadged Mazda2; 171" long). The Suzuki Dzire is the same length as the smallest Mini Cooper - but without the sports-car appeal. It'll do 0-60 in 12 seconds (14 seconds if you want an automatic). Americans want cars that can do 0-60 in half that time. Companies have attempted to bring cheaper and smaller vehicles to the US, but Americans won't buy them. Even today, Americans will spend an extra $5,000-10,000 to get an SUV. Americans complain non-stop about gas prices, but proceed to buy vehicles that guzzle gas. The average new car price in the US is over $47,000 - way above what you'd pay for a loaded Toyota Camry. Americans don't want a Suzuki Dzire. They want a pickup truck with all the luxury trimmings. Part of the cost of US cars is regulatory compliance. As the article notes, this was tested by Global NCAP which tests cars from markets with weak or non-existent regulations. Part of it is going to be the cost of labor or import tariffs. Mexico has lower wages than the US, but part of USMCA/NAFTA trade agreement means that their auto industry wages are a lot closer to US/Canada wages. You aren't going to be able to build them in India and import them to the US without facing tariffs. Part of it is that Americans simply don't want a cheap car. I totally get where you're coming from because I don't want to spend a lot on a car. I also want an iPhone mini. People continually say that a small phone would be a big hit. Companies have tried and failed. There are so many cheaper options for cars in the US and Americans are spending nearly fifty grand instead. And when you start talking about bringing a Suzuki Dzire up to US regulations, import taxes, distribution costs (and the American wages you need to pay to everyone importing, transporting, and selling your cars here), equipment you want, etc. does that $8,000 vehicle look more like $14,000? And then at that price, do you want something that's 80hp and 0-60 in 14 seconds or would you rather spend up for a Toyota Corolla and get a much larger car with a lot more power and an amazing track record? Toyota sold the Yaris for $16,000, but people didn't want it. We're talking about a car that Car and Driver gave 9.5/10. It was a really good car at a great price and Americans wouldn't buy it. It's easy to think "I'd love an $8,000 car" when you aren't/can't seriously consider buying it. But maybe we're similar and we'd like more affordable cars and are willing to go with something basic. But most Americans wouldn't be up in arms for this $8,000 car. They're spending double what many great cars cost and they'd rather moan about the cost of gas than drive something efficient. Hell, hybrids today like the Civic or Prius get better 0-60 times than the sports sedans from my youth - but that doesn't matter. Americans will moan about paying for stuff, but the second that you suggest they buy something efficient or affordable or make any compromise and they'll find any reason not to.

darth_avocado 2y ago

It’s more expensive because you pay US wages to make the car. PPP is the real reason why it’s cheaper to build in a country where a $1000/month is a really good salary that will afford you a comfortable lifestyle on 1 income.

alephnerd 2y ago
Purchasing Power is not enough to tip the scales. The reason costs are low is because of scale and automation. Suzuki exports it's India manufactured cars and components across Asia and Africa which helps drive costs down drastically, and leadership make a strategic decision to pivot towards automation. Maruti Suzuki has been heavily automated for almost 2 decades now, especially after the union killed a plant manager and burnt down the Manesar factory in 2012 [2] Already in 2017 Maruti Suzuki had 2000 installed units for 10000 employees [0], but the US still had around 1300 installed units for 10000 employees in 2021 [1]. Also, salaries in Maruti Suzuki Manesar and Gurgaon (the flagship factories in suburbs of Delhi) are similar to Dacia's in Romania and the CoL in Delhi NCR is comparable to Eastern Europe in general, yet similar cars in Europe will cost around $10-15k. [0] - https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Robots-sweep-across-Maruti-Suzukis-shop-floor.html https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Ro... [1] - https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-car-industry-ranks-7th-worldwide https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-... [2] - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-workers-in-deadly-haryana-riot-10-facts-1668232 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-wor...

mrguyorama 2y ago

If there is one thing Americans show they are amazing at, it's insisting that the simple improvements that Europe has, like affordable small cars, or socialized (or better public/private like germany has), or trains, or consumer protections, Are magically impossible here.