4 ms·

People gravitate towards Chrome in part because of Google’s heavy marketing of it. Whenever I sign into Gmail in Safari I get a pop up about a “better experienc

People gravitate towards Chrome in part because of Google’s heavy marketing of it. Whenever I sign into Gmail in Safari I get a pop up about a “better experience” awaiting me.

cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Google also turns every link tap in their iOS apps into an opportunity to upsell Chrome for iOS when it should just open the link with the user’s default browser.
- dwetterau 2y ago
  I'm shocked that Apple hasn't cracked down on this process through App store reviews. It's such an awful experience.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    I’m not surprised, though. They’re not exactly on the most solid ground with them preventing any engines other than their own WebKit for third-party browsers or even apps.
- robocat 2y ago
  How else is Google supposed to "integrate" within iOS? Safari and Messages etcetera link to within the closed Apple ecosystem - just like Windows. It can be between difficult to impossible to send an email or create a calendar item unless you use the iOS apps. I'm definitely no Google fanboi but every answer being "Google are arseholes" feels dishonest. The Chromium developer team absolutely kick arse and being open source is a true gift. Mozilla is badly failing to compete. Microsoft failed to compete with their first Edge rewrite, and now ironicalky MS "competes" using Chromium open source. And why did Chromium have to split from WebKit? As an outsider it just looked like "because Apple don't want to play nice". The story is always simplified to Google greedy arseholes. A typical response: you can never ever ever satisfy open source proponents... The stereotype that every open source user greedily wants more.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    > How else is Google supposed to "integrate" within iOS? Like everybody else. If the user wants Chrome on iOS, they can install it and set it as their default browser. To link to other Google apps, Google can use Universal Links[0] to directly open Calendar, Sheets, etc or open the corresponding App Store page if they haven’t been installed yet. Google forked WebKit because they wanted to take it in a direction that was fundamentally incompatible with the direction Apple wanted to go: Google wanted more core functionality (process management, etc) to be written as part of the browser (likely to serve as a moat) while Apple wanted all that to live within the engine itself so third party devs could take advantage of it without having to fork a whole browser (just drop WebKit into your app and go). [0]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing-apps-and-websites-to-link-to-your-content/ https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing-app...
    - robocat 2y ago
      > Google forked WebKit Yes - working code that everybody uses now including a major competitor - Microsoft. Where's the alternative timeline with a WebKit browser on Windows? Oh, Apple killed v5.1.7 Safari on Windows in 2010 - their choice. Windows Safari had its issues but it was a great browser when it was released. Virtually nobody has chosen to base their browser on WebKit - and they choose not to for good reasons. Similarly why nobody forked Gecko - they didn't want that code. > without having to fork a whole browser (just drop WebKit into your app and go). But Apple failed at that goal - saying that WebKit works better as an engine is just not what happened in reality. WebKit was certainly a worse choice for open source engine on Windows back when Windows really mattered. Nobody used it. > likely to serve as a moat That is just making shit up. If Google wanted a moat then they could have built a moat. History has shown that the multiprocess design of Chromium was no moat. You might argue there are other moats - and that is what the DOJ seems to be arguing. Link to the reasons the Chromium team wrote: https://www.chromium.org/blink/developer-faq/ https://www.chromium.org/blink/developer-faq/ Edit: I guess I would also like to link to a great response to "you must be the product": https://danfrank.ca/most-businesses-dont-work-that-way/ https://danfrank.ca/most-businesses-dont-work-that-way/ and we should always refer to Spolsky's "comoditize your complement" https://gwern.net/complement https://gwern.net/complement
elmerfud 2y ago
That is true in a valid point but install Windows sometimes and see how much it pushes you toward the edge browser. Which is chromium at its core but the experience it provides is not as good as Chrome even with all of Chrome's downsides. So while I don't have the specific answer I think there is a much bigger question here of is it free market choice that is gravitated everyone here or is it monopolistic pressure that is squeezed out the competition. Microsoft is no small player in this space they're just the suckier player as they lost their crown with Internet explorer when they effectively owned the market too.
- cmeacham98 2y ago
  > That is true in a valid point but install Windows sometimes and see how much it pushes you toward the edge browser. The difference here is that Microsoft's reputation is beyond ruined in this product category due to Internet Explorer.
  - NewJazz 2y ago
    It is not. Plenty of newcomers and old boomers won't even notice if you switch edge for chrome.
  - elmerfud 2y ago
    You're correct Microsoft ruined their own reputation with Internet explorer but does that mean when a company utterly fails with one of their products to the point that a competitor can come in and dominate the marketplace we should somehow automatically reward the one who failed. If it's really anti-competitive practices then I would agree but if it's just market forces then we should not reward those who've already mismanage their ability and their dominant market position to lose out in such a short period of time.
leptons 2y ago
Chrome is definitely a better experience than Safari, and not by a little bit. In many ways Safari is the worst browser out there right now. Most of its market share comes from the fact that Apple still forces Safari to be used on iOS no matter what browser you think you have installed. I think the DOJ should go after Apple harder on that than they are on Google, because nobody is forcing anyone to use Chrome the same way Apple is forcing their users to use Safari.
- afavour 2y ago
  I agree that the DOJ should enforce browser choice in iOS much like the EU has but in this scenario it feels besides the point. No matter how better or worse anyone might think Safari is it’s my right to choose which browser I access a site with, and I’d rather not be harassed to change.
  - leptons 2y ago
    Apple forces you to use Safari because it's the least capable mobile browser, which pushes developers to develop iOS apps to use the device APIs that other browsers allow but Safari won't implement - this drives people to the 30% cash grab Apple gets from their app store, instead of using web applications that are possible on other browsers on other platforms. It's awful what Apple is doing with forcing Safari on iOS. To make it worse, there are plenty of Apple-only proprietary things about Safari that make buying their hardware a necessity to debug problems that only appear on Safari. Web developers hate Safari, it's now known as "the new IE" because it's so bad.
    - afavour 2y ago
      Like I said, I agree with you on all that. I develop mobile web sites, I’m very familiar with all this. I still choose to use Safari on my Mac, it should be my choice to make.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Desktop Safari’s ~15% market share, which exceeds Firefox’s ~7%, suggests otherwise. Mac users can freely switch and yet many don’t. There are likely several reasons for this but I think the two biggest ones are its differences in philosophy: first, that browsers should be just one utility among many on a desktop OS and not try to set itself apart and second, to actively combat the internet’s hostilities on behalf of the user. Chrome will never do either. It tries to be a distinct brand and platform instead of meshing with your desktop nicely and it’s not going to do anything that will negatively impact Google’s many ad businesses.

People gravitate towards Chrome in part because of Google’s heavy marketing of it. Whenever I sign into Gmail in Safari I get a pop up about a “better experience” awaiting me.

cosmic_cheese 2y ago

Google also turns every link tap in their iOS apps into an opportunity to upsell Chrome for iOS when it should just open the link with the user’s default browser.

dwetterau 2y ago
I'm shocked that Apple hasn't cracked down on this process through App store reviews. It's such an awful experience.
- lxgr 2y ago
  I’m not surprised, though. They’re not exactly on the most solid ground with them preventing any engines other than their own WebKit for third-party browsers or even apps.
robocat 2y ago
How else is Google supposed to "integrate" within iOS? Safari and Messages etcetera link to within the closed Apple ecosystem - just like Windows. It can be between difficult to impossible to send an email or create a calendar item unless you use the iOS apps. I'm definitely no Google fanboi but every answer being "Google are arseholes" feels dishonest. The Chromium developer team absolutely kick arse and being open source is a true gift. Mozilla is badly failing to compete. Microsoft failed to compete with their first Edge rewrite, and now ironicalky MS "competes" using Chromium open source. And why did Chromium have to split from WebKit? As an outsider it just looked like "because Apple don't want to play nice". The story is always simplified to Google greedy arseholes. A typical response: you can never ever ever satisfy open source proponents... The stereotype that every open source user greedily wants more.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  > How else is Google supposed to "integrate" within iOS? Like everybody else. If the user wants Chrome on iOS, they can install it and set it as their default browser. To link to other Google apps, Google can use Universal Links[0] to directly open Calendar, Sheets, etc or open the corresponding App Store page if they haven’t been installed yet. Google forked WebKit because they wanted to take it in a direction that was fundamentally incompatible with the direction Apple wanted to go: Google wanted more core functionality (process management, etc) to be written as part of the browser (likely to serve as a moat) while Apple wanted all that to live within the engine itself so third party devs could take advantage of it without having to fork a whole browser (just drop WebKit into your app and go). [0]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing-apps-and-websites-to-link-to-your-content/ https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing-app...
  - robocat 2y ago
    > Google forked WebKit Yes - working code that everybody uses now including a major competitor - Microsoft. Where's the alternative timeline with a WebKit browser on Windows? Oh, Apple killed v5.1.7 Safari on Windows in 2010 - their choice. Windows Safari had its issues but it was a great browser when it was released. Virtually nobody has chosen to base their browser on WebKit - and they choose not to for good reasons. Similarly why nobody forked Gecko - they didn't want that code. > without having to fork a whole browser (just drop WebKit into your app and go). But Apple failed at that goal - saying that WebKit works better as an engine is just not what happened in reality. WebKit was certainly a worse choice for open source engine on Windows back when Windows really mattered. Nobody used it. > likely to serve as a moat That is just making shit up. If Google wanted a moat then they could have built a moat. History has shown that the multiprocess design of Chromium was no moat. You might argue there are other moats - and that is what the DOJ seems to be arguing. Link to the reasons the Chromium team wrote: https://www.chromium.org/blink/developer-faq/ https://www.chromium.org/blink/developer-faq/ Edit: I guess I would also like to link to a great response to "you must be the product": https://danfrank.ca/most-businesses-dont-work-that-way/ https://danfrank.ca/most-businesses-dont-work-that-way/ and we should always refer to Spolsky's "comoditize your complement" https://gwern.net/complement https://gwern.net/complement

elmerfud 2y ago

That is true in a valid point but install Windows sometimes and see how much it pushes you toward the edge browser. Which is chromium at its core but the experience it provides is not as good as Chrome even with all of Chrome's downsides. So while I don't have the specific answer I think there is a much bigger question here of is it free market choice that is gravitated everyone here or is it monopolistic pressure that is squeezed out the competition. Microsoft is no small player in this space they're just the suckier player as they lost their crown with Internet explorer when they effectively owned the market too.

cmeacham98 2y ago
> That is true in a valid point but install Windows sometimes and see how much it pushes you toward the edge browser. The difference here is that Microsoft's reputation is beyond ruined in this product category due to Internet Explorer.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  It is not. Plenty of newcomers and old boomers won't even notice if you switch edge for chrome.
- elmerfud 2y ago
  You're correct Microsoft ruined their own reputation with Internet explorer but does that mean when a company utterly fails with one of their products to the point that a competitor can come in and dominate the marketplace we should somehow automatically reward the one who failed. If it's really anti-competitive practices then I would agree but if it's just market forces then we should not reward those who've already mismanage their ability and their dominant market position to lose out in such a short period of time.

leptons 2y ago

Chrome is definitely a better experience than Safari, and not by a little bit. In many ways Safari is the worst browser out there right now. Most of its market share comes from the fact that Apple still forces Safari to be used on iOS no matter what browser you think you have installed. I think the DOJ should go after Apple harder on that than they are on Google, because nobody is forcing anyone to use Chrome the same way Apple is forcing their users to use Safari.

afavour 2y ago
I agree that the DOJ should enforce browser choice in iOS much like the EU has but in this scenario it feels besides the point. No matter how better or worse anyone might think Safari is it’s my right to choose which browser I access a site with, and I’d rather not be harassed to change.
- leptons 2y ago
  Apple forces you to use Safari because it's the least capable mobile browser, which pushes developers to develop iOS apps to use the device APIs that other browsers allow but Safari won't implement - this drives people to the 30% cash grab Apple gets from their app store, instead of using web applications that are possible on other browsers on other platforms. It's awful what Apple is doing with forcing Safari on iOS. To make it worse, there are plenty of Apple-only proprietary things about Safari that make buying their hardware a necessity to debug problems that only appear on Safari. Web developers hate Safari, it's now known as "the new IE" because it's so bad.
  - afavour 2y ago
    Like I said, I agree with you on all that. I develop mobile web sites, I’m very familiar with all this. I still choose to use Safari on my Mac, it should be my choice to make.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Desktop Safari’s ~15% market share, which exceeds Firefox’s ~7%, suggests otherwise. Mac users can freely switch and yet many don’t. There are likely several reasons for this but I think the two biggest ones are its differences in philosophy: first, that browsers should be just one utility among many on a desktop OS and not try to set itself apart and second, to actively combat the internet’s hostilities on behalf of the user. Chrome will never do either. It tries to be a distinct brand and platform instead of meshing with your desktop nicely and it’s not going to do anything that will negatively impact Google’s many ad businesses.