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In what country is intentional property destruction not a crime? You’re not arguing that it’s really accidental, right?

MichaelZuo 2y ago
12.1 nm offshore is not any country, which is the point…The laws of zero countries matter, and only certain multilateral agreements matter, at least on paper.
- echoangle 2y ago
  It’s still a de jure crime on the ship itself, because the laws of the flag country apply there. If the captain of the ship intentionally damaged something in international waters, he still committed a (de jure, which was the question) crime.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    No? Why would the laws of the flag country matter for an anchor slowly drifting to the seabed detached from a vessel several km away? Edit: I’m pretty sure most, if not all, such countries don’t even ascribe any legal status to wrecked and sunken lifeboats, let alone anchors. Probably most countries don’t even have a formal penalty, of any kind, for lifeboats detached and sunken, for any reason, for anyone on the ship.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      The „anchor accidents“ with cables are normally when a ship is dragging an anchor over the cable. That’s property damage of someone else’s stuff, which is a crime in pretty much any country. And even if you drop your anchor to intentionally destroy someone else’s property, that would be a crime anywhere. You don’t need a specific law for anchors.
      - MichaelZuo 2y ago
        Do you not know how ships typically operate? Vessel captains drop anchor all the time if they are caught out of port in a stormy area. And if it’s a big enough storm they are quite literally dragged around along with the anchor. It literally happens every month on Earth. It just’s implausible that dragging alone would be a crime in any flag country. Edit: Maybe they can criminalize dragging it for a very long distance, say 10+ km, but I’m pretty sure the most popular flag countries do not, e.g. Liberia.
        echoangle 2y ago
        That's why my first question was > In what country is intentional property destruction not a crime? You’re not arguing that it’s really accidental, right? So you are arguing that it's an accident? Do you agree that it would be a crime if it was intentional?
        MichaelZuo 2y ago
        Do you not understand what intentionally anchoring in a place means on a ship? I’ll repeat as clearly as possible, literally every single month on planet Earth many ship captains are intentionally putting very heavy objects into the water in areas that they know may contain some property that their anchor may hit/drag/snare/etc… on something. This is usually done when the probability is very low, but in bad enough conditions they may just not care regardless of probability, and anchor anyways.
        echoangle 2y ago
        Ok, so we could have saved 5 comments if you just answered „yes“ to my first question. The cable disruptions most likely aren’t real accidents but sabotage, coupled with plausible deniability explanations of anchor accidents. That’s why I was talking about intentional damage from the start. Read the thread again.
        MichaelZuo 2y ago

12.1 nm offshore is not any country, which is the point…The laws of zero countries matter, and only certain multilateral agreements matter, at least on paper.

echoangle 2y ago
It’s still a de jure crime on the ship itself, because the laws of the flag country apply there. If the captain of the ship intentionally damaged something in international waters, he still committed a (de jure, which was the question) crime.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  No? Why would the laws of the flag country matter for an anchor slowly drifting to the seabed detached from a vessel several km away? Edit: I’m pretty sure most, if not all, such countries don’t even ascribe any legal status to wrecked and sunken lifeboats, let alone anchors. Probably most countries don’t even have a formal penalty, of any kind, for lifeboats detached and sunken, for any reason, for anyone on the ship.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    The „anchor accidents“ with cables are normally when a ship is dragging an anchor over the cable. That’s property damage of someone else’s stuff, which is a crime in pretty much any country. And even if you drop your anchor to intentionally destroy someone else’s property, that would be a crime anywhere. You don’t need a specific law for anchors.
    - MichaelZuo 2y ago
      Do you not know how ships typically operate? Vessel captains drop anchor all the time if they are caught out of port in a stormy area. And if it’s a big enough storm they are quite literally dragged around along with the anchor. It literally happens every month on Earth. It just’s implausible that dragging alone would be a crime in any flag country. Edit: Maybe they can criminalize dragging it for a very long distance, say 10+ km, but I’m pretty sure the most popular flag countries do not, e.g. Liberia.
      - echoangle 2y ago
        That's why my first question was > In what country is intentional property destruction not a crime? You’re not arguing that it’s really accidental, right? So you are arguing that it's an accident? Do you agree that it would be a crime if it was intentional?
        MichaelZuo 2y ago
        Do you not understand what intentionally anchoring in a place means on a ship? I’ll repeat as clearly as possible, literally every single month on planet Earth many ship captains are intentionally putting very heavy objects into the water in areas that they know may contain some property that their anchor may hit/drag/snare/etc… on something. This is usually done when the probability is very low, but in bad enough conditions they may just not care regardless of probability, and anchor anyways.
        echoangle 2y ago
        Ok, so we could have saved 5 comments if you just answered „yes“ to my first question. The cable disruptions most likely aren’t real accidents but sabotage, coupled with plausible deniability explanations of anchor accidents. That’s why I was talking about intentional damage from the start. Read the thread again.
        MichaelZuo 2y ago