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So sacrifice more Ukrainian men for the meat grinder? What has that accomplished so far?

by PKop 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> sacrifice more Ukrainian men for the meat grinder? To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians [1]. > What has that accomplished so far? Russia's disqualifying itself as a conventional military threat for at least a generation. It's not yet there yet, largely because Ukraine has been unable to target its war marchine. But the startling inefficacy of its army and technology has been made clear. Moreover, the front line has been maintained in Ukraine: that keeps them further from NATO and thus American and European boys at home. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...
- PKop 2y ago
  >To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians It's of both. Why deny the fact Ukrainian men are dying in droves? This is disrespectful of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice. Pretending this is not extremely costly to Ukraine in manpower is denying reality. They have been increasing the age of conscripts as they're running out of young men.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Why deny the fact Ukrainian men are dying in droves? Nobody is. Meat grinder means excessive loss relative to necessity. The Ukranians are being slaughtered, but not mindlessly. They're fighting efficiently in respect of manpower. Also, had we given Ukraine all the weapons it asked for in 2022, we probably wouldn't have had a meat grinder.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - maximilianburke 2y ago
    And, hence, we should give them all the arms and tools they need and the freedom to use them to end it quickly. The dithering on behalf of Biden and Scholz is what's prolonging this.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians. That seems unfair. It's more of a meat grinder for the aggressor, but it's also one for the Ukrainians, by all indications.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      It has already been acknowledged that the rates are "lopsided", i.e. that Russian loss rates are higher than Ukrainian loss rates. But none of what you're saying means that Ukraine isn't also suffering from a very high loss rate.
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        [flagged]
        chgs 2y ago
        Tens of thousands of Ukrainians have died, maybe hunderds of thousands.
        rightbyte 2y ago
        [flagged]
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Not "hundreds of thousands". That's just pure anxiety. Reliable estimate ranges are out there. They're easy to find. If you want to, you can find them. They're all below 100k.
- sedan_baklazhan 2y ago
  1. Ukrainian borders are closed from day one. 2. Russian borders are open from day one. 3. Ukrainian conscription is keeping on going from day one, taking radical form in recent year or so (men being violently dragged from streets) 4. Russia has had a single conscription which lasted 3 months. 5. Ukrainians are risking their lives fleeing the country via rivers and mountains. Many escapers were found shot. 6. You can take a plane and emigrate from Russia. No obstacles. Yet you insist there are much more casualties in Russia. Where’s the logic here?
  - Sabinus 2y ago
    Russia has a 3x larger population and so far has had the luxury of being able to pay (relatively) extremely high wages to entice people to go.
    - sedan_baklazhan 2y ago
      Military wages are more or less the same. Russia has 3x more population but we're told that Russia suffers many times bigger losses vs ukrainian.
barrenko 2y ago
Well currently ensuring happy holidays for the western-er part of Europe.
marssaxman 2y ago
What business is that of ours? It's up to the Ukrainians what they are willing to do in defense of their country.
- PKop 2y ago
  >we could have fight for us C'mon. Their funding is entirely US dependent. What business is that of ours? We are enabling it. How could you possibly ask the question "what business is that of ours"? Explain yourself, that question is absurd.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > What business is that of ours? We are enabling it. They clearly want to fight! This is like arguing giving someone chemo is enabling their cancer.
    - PKop 2y ago
      Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? They are running out of men they can find to fight, and for quite a while the government and military used very aggressive methods to force men into service. There is a huge desertion problem, in the military and the country itself. A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ukraine-running-out-soldiers-fight-russia-213354 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ukraine-running-out-s...
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? Who do you think? > A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight Yes, there is not unanimous agreement on a big political question. Shocking. By this measure, nobody should ever fight for everything.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight. A whole lot of people don't want to fight in any war. What matters is the relative portion. Though they my differ in the views as to whether the lost regions can be regained, or on what terms a cease-fire may be acceptable -- by all indications, a very solid majority of the society in non-occupied Ukraine supports the fight. Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? About 60-80 percent of the population. "Clearly" as in according to reliable polling data I can pull up later. Or by spending any amount of time talking to Ukrainians. There is a huge desertion problem, It is obviously a significant problem, but a better source is needed on the "huge" part. The link you provided does not support that view. If I hear "desertion is a huge problem", what comes to mind it the situation in Afghanstan after the notorious Trump-Biden pullout. The situation in Ukraine is nothing like that, not even remotely.
maximilianburke 2y ago
Given that Russia is invading them and that they are showing no reluctance to stand up to them, yes? Arm them, give them everything they need without restriction and Russia will be sent home to their borders, bloodied and cowed.

So sacrifice more Ukrainian men for the meat grinder? What has that accomplished so far?

by PKop 2y ago

So sacrifice more Ukrainian men for the meat grinder? What has that accomplished so far?

> sacrifice more Ukrainian men for the meat grinder? To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians [1]. > What has that accomplished so far? Russia's disqualifying itself as a conventional military threat for at least a generation. It's not yet there yet, largely because Ukraine has been unable to target its war marchine. But the startling inefficacy of its army and technology has been made clear. Moreover, the front line has been maintained in Ukraine: that keeps them further from NATO and thus American and European boys at home. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...

PKop 2y ago
>To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians It's of both. Why deny the fact Ukrainian men are dying in droves? This is disrespectful of those that paid the ultimate sacrifice. Pretending this is not extremely costly to Ukraine in manpower is denying reality. They have been increasing the age of conscripts as they're running out of young men.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Why deny the fact Ukrainian men are dying in droves? Nobody is. Meat grinder means excessive loss relative to necessity. The Ukranians are being slaughtered, but not mindlessly. They're fighting efficiently in respect of manpower. Also, had we given Ukraine all the weapons it asked for in 2022, we probably wouldn't have had a meat grinder.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    [flagged]
- maximilianburke 2y ago
  And, hence, we should give them all the arms and tools they need and the freedom to use them to end it quickly. The dithering on behalf of Biden and Scholz is what's prolonging this.
aguaviva 2y ago
To the extent there's a meat grinder, it's of Russians. That seems unfair. It's more of a meat grinder for the aggressor, but it's also one for the Ukrainians, by all indications.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    It has already been acknowledged that the rates are "lopsided", i.e. that Russian loss rates are higher than Ukrainian loss rates. But none of what you're saying means that Ukraine isn't also suffering from a very high loss rate.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - chgs 2y ago
        Tens of thousands of Ukrainians have died, maybe hunderds of thousands.
        rightbyte 2y ago
        [flagged]
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Not "hundreds of thousands". That's just pure anxiety. Reliable estimate ranges are out there. They're easy to find. If you want to, you can find them. They're all below 100k.
sedan_baklazhan 2y ago
1. Ukrainian borders are closed from day one. 2. Russian borders are open from day one. 3. Ukrainian conscription is keeping on going from day one, taking radical form in recent year or so (men being violently dragged from streets) 4. Russia has had a single conscription which lasted 3 months. 5. Ukrainians are risking their lives fleeing the country via rivers and mountains. Many escapers were found shot. 6. You can take a plane and emigrate from Russia. No obstacles. Yet you insist there are much more casualties in Russia. Where’s the logic here?
- Sabinus 2y ago
  Russia has a 3x larger population and so far has had the luxury of being able to pay (relatively) extremely high wages to entice people to go.
  - sedan_baklazhan 2y ago
    Military wages are more or less the same. Russia has 3x more population but we're told that Russia suffers many times bigger losses vs ukrainian.

barrenko 2y ago

Well currently ensuring happy holidays for the western-er part of Europe.

marssaxman 2y ago

What business is that of ours? It's up to the Ukrainians what they are willing to do in defense of their country.

PKop 2y ago
>we could have fight for us C'mon. Their funding is entirely US dependent. What business is that of ours? We are enabling it. How could you possibly ask the question "what business is that of ours"? Explain yourself, that question is absurd.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > What business is that of ours? We are enabling it. They clearly want to fight! This is like arguing giving someone chemo is enabling their cancer.
  - PKop 2y ago
    Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? They are running out of men they can find to fight, and for quite a while the government and military used very aggressive methods to force men into service. There is a huge desertion problem, in the military and the country itself. A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ukraine-running-out-soldiers-fight-russia-213354 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ukraine-running-out-s...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? Who do you think? > A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight Yes, there is not unanimous agreement on a big political question. Shocking. By this measure, nobody should ever fight for everything.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      A whole lot of Ukrainians do not want to fight. A whole lot of people don't want to fight in any war. What matters is the relative portion. Though they my differ in the views as to whether the lost regions can be regained, or on what terms a cease-fire may be acceptable -- by all indications, a very solid majority of the society in non-occupied Ukraine supports the fight. Who is "they" and what is "clearly"? About 60-80 percent of the population. "Clearly" as in according to reliable polling data I can pull up later. Or by spending any amount of time talking to Ukrainians. There is a huge desertion problem, It is obviously a significant problem, but a better source is needed on the "huge" part. The link you provided does not support that view. If I hear "desertion is a huge problem", what comes to mind it the situation in Afghanstan after the notorious Trump-Biden pullout. The situation in Ukraine is nothing like that, not even remotely.

maximilianburke 2y ago

Given that Russia is invading them and that they are showing no reluctance to stand up to them, yes? Arm them, give them everything they need without restriction and Russia will be sent home to their borders, bloodied and cowed.