2 ms·

I will wave my arms wildly if the claim is that LLM struggle with recall is similar to human-like struggle with recall. And since that's how we decide on truth,

I will wave my arms wildly if the claim is that LLM struggle with recall is similar to human-like struggle with recall. And since that's how we decide on truth, I win?

anon291 2y ago
what we call hallucination in LLMs is called 'rationalization' for humans. The psychology shows that most peoples do things out of habit and only after they've done it will explain why the did it. This is most obviously seen in split brain patients where the visual fields are then separated. If you throw a ball towards the left side of the person, the right brain will catch the ball. if you then ask the person why they caught the ball the left brain will make up a completely ridiculous narrative as to why the hand moved (because it didn't know there is a ball. This is a contrived example, but it shows that human recollection of intent is often very very wrong. There are studies that show this even in people with whole brains.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  You're unfortunately completely missing the point. I didn't say that human recall is perfect or that they don't rationalize. And of course you can have extreme denial of what's happening in front of you even in healthy individuals. In fact, you see this in this thread where either you or the huge number of people trying to dissillusion you from the maximal position you've staked out on LLMs is wrong and one of us is incorrectly rationalizing our position. The point is that the ways in which it fails is completely different from LLMs and it's different between people whereas the failure modes for LLMs are all fairly identical regardless of the model. Go ask an LLM to draw you a wine glass filled to the brim and it'll keep insisting it does even though it keeps drawing one half-filled and agree that the one it drew doesn't have the characteristics it says such a drawing would need and still output the exact same drawing. Most people would not fail at the task in that way.
  - anon291 2y ago
    > In fact, you see this in this thread where either you or the huge number of people trying to dissillusion you from the maximal position you've staked out on LLMs is wrong and one of us is incorrectly rationalizing our position. I by no means have a 'maximal' position. I have said that they exceed the intelligence and ability of the vast majority of the human populace when it comes to their singular sense and action (ingesting language and outputting language). I fully stand by that, because it's true. I've not claimed that they exceed everyone's intelligence in every area. However, their ability to synthesize wildly different fields is well beyond most human's ability. Yes, I do believe we've crossed the tipping point. As it is, these things are not noticeable except in retrospect. > The point is that the ways in which it fails is completely different from LLMs and it's different between people whereas the failure modes for LLMs are all fairly identical I disagree with the idea that human failure modes are different between people. I think this is the result of not thinking at a high enough level. Human failure modes are often very similar. Drama authors make a living off exploring human failure modes, and there's a reason why they say there are no new stories. I agree that Human and LLM failure modes are different, but that's to be expected. > regardless of the model As far as I'm aware, all LLMs in common use today use a variant of the transformer. Transformers have much different pitfalls compared to RNNs (RNNs are parlticularly bad at recall for example). > Go ask an LLM to draw you a wine glass filled to the brim and it'll keep insisting it does even though it keeps drawing one half-filled and agree that the one it drew doesn't have the characteristics it says such a drawing would need and still output the exact same drawing. Most people would not fail at the task in that way. Most people can't draw very well anyway, so this is just proving my point.
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      > Most people can't draw very well anyway, so this is just proving my point. And you're proving my point. The ways in which the people would fail to draw the wine glass are different from the LLM. The vast majority of people would fail to reproduce a photorealistic simile. But the vast majority of people would meet the requirement of drawing it filled to the brim. The LLMs absolutely succeed at the quality of the drawing but absolutely fail at meeting human specifications and expectations. Generously, you can say it's a different kind of intelligence. But saying it's more intelligent than humans requires you to use a drastically different axis akin to the one you'd use saying that computers are smarter than humans because they can add two numbers more quickly.

I will wave my arms wildly if the claim is that LLM struggle with recall is similar to human-like struggle with recall. And since that's how we decide on truth, I win?

anon291 2y ago

what we call hallucination in LLMs is called 'rationalization' for humans. The psychology shows that most peoples do things out of habit and only after they've done it will explain why the did it. This is most obviously seen in split brain patients where the visual fields are then separated. If you throw a ball towards the left side of the person, the right brain will catch the ball. if you then ask the person why they caught the ball the left brain will make up a completely ridiculous narrative as to why the hand moved (because it didn't know there is a ball. This is a contrived example, but it shows that human recollection of intent is often very very wrong. There are studies that show this even in people with whole brains.

vlovich123 2y ago
You're unfortunately completely missing the point. I didn't say that human recall is perfect or that they don't rationalize. And of course you can have extreme denial of what's happening in front of you even in healthy individuals. In fact, you see this in this thread where either you or the huge number of people trying to dissillusion you from the maximal position you've staked out on LLMs is wrong and one of us is incorrectly rationalizing our position. The point is that the ways in which it fails is completely different from LLMs and it's different between people whereas the failure modes for LLMs are all fairly identical regardless of the model. Go ask an LLM to draw you a wine glass filled to the brim and it'll keep insisting it does even though it keeps drawing one half-filled and agree that the one it drew doesn't have the characteristics it says such a drawing would need and still output the exact same drawing. Most people would not fail at the task in that way.
- anon291 2y ago
  > In fact, you see this in this thread where either you or the huge number of people trying to dissillusion you from the maximal position you've staked out on LLMs is wrong and one of us is incorrectly rationalizing our position. I by no means have a 'maximal' position. I have said that they exceed the intelligence and ability of the vast majority of the human populace when it comes to their singular sense and action (ingesting language and outputting language). I fully stand by that, because it's true. I've not claimed that they exceed everyone's intelligence in every area. However, their ability to synthesize wildly different fields is well beyond most human's ability. Yes, I do believe we've crossed the tipping point. As it is, these things are not noticeable except in retrospect. > The point is that the ways in which it fails is completely different from LLMs and it's different between people whereas the failure modes for LLMs are all fairly identical I disagree with the idea that human failure modes are different between people. I think this is the result of not thinking at a high enough level. Human failure modes are often very similar. Drama authors make a living off exploring human failure modes, and there's a reason why they say there are no new stories. I agree that Human and LLM failure modes are different, but that's to be expected. > regardless of the model As far as I'm aware, all LLMs in common use today use a variant of the transformer. Transformers have much different pitfalls compared to RNNs (RNNs are parlticularly bad at recall for example). > Go ask an LLM to draw you a wine glass filled to the brim and it'll keep insisting it does even though it keeps drawing one half-filled and agree that the one it drew doesn't have the characteristics it says such a drawing would need and still output the exact same drawing. Most people would not fail at the task in that way. Most people can't draw very well anyway, so this is just proving my point.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    > Most people can't draw very well anyway, so this is just proving my point. And you're proving my point. The ways in which the people would fail to draw the wine glass are different from the LLM. The vast majority of people would fail to reproduce a photorealistic simile. But the vast majority of people would meet the requirement of drawing it filled to the brim. The LLMs absolutely succeed at the quality of the drawing but absolutely fail at meeting human specifications and expectations. Generously, you can say it's a different kind of intelligence. But saying it's more intelligent than humans requires you to use a drastically different axis akin to the one you'd use saying that computers are smarter than humans because they can add two numbers more quickly.