4 ms·

Exceptionally well-armed NATO + JEF members, and Finland well within distance to use conventional artillery to turn St Petersburg to rubble. This is a public-aw

Exceptionally well-armed NATO + JEF members, and Finland well within distance to use conventional artillery to turn St Petersburg to rubble. This is a public-awareness and support-building exercise rather than a real concern. This is like the RAF frequently issuing press-releases about intercepting Russian jets.

mdp2021 2y ago
> conventional artillery to turn St Petersburg to rubble Well, let's really hope not. (Let us hope that nothing of worth is ever destroyed, and let us not speak about destruction of universal goods lightly.) Edit: let us be even more clear (possibly in light of the dismissing feelers who just passed by). If you are into destruction of the cultural heritage, you are the enemy. Complexities just come later.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Putin is hoping and taking action to ensure otherwise.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    That reinforces my point instead of changing it. Destruction of the Worth = bad. I.e. it is part of what should be fought.
- soco 2y ago
  Are human lives worthwhile to be destroyed? Are they not universal enough? Because I don't see much respect for those around the world... starting, but not ending there, with the russian soldiers themselves.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    Some will be of the opinion that what may not respect cultural heritage may not have the same worth. Sorry. Edit: I will express it again, and to stress the point: some things are the fruit of the drive towards construction. Some other things may be destroyers. So, it all depends. No, we will not attribute worth to destroyers.
- sgjohnson 2y ago
  No such thing as cultural heritage if destroying it would achieve the war goal of significantly lower the enemy's morale, irrespective of what international law says about it.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    It's not a matter of law, it's a matter of judgement: in front of a threat to what should be respected every cell in the world should become and antibody to erase what revealed as the lowlest scum from the actors.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
bilbo0s 2y ago
Uh.. If we turn St Petersburg into rubble, I doubt anyone will be worrying about a few trifling conventional weapons. NATO and Russia go at it, and we're all just sitting around next month waiting for the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians and South Africans to sort out who is responsible for which relief efforts. Actually, now I think about it, that quad will probably be far more concerned with determining the disposition of the remaining NATO/Russian warheads. So even relief efforts might be impacted by their more pressing concerns. In any case, the world would just be a mess for a good long while.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  > If we turn St Petersburg into rubble, I doubt anyone will be worrying about a few trifling conventional weapons Yes, exactly, that's why this isn't going to happen.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  NATO and Russia go at it and everyone is screwed, there will be no winners, nobody on the sidelines, no picking through the spoils.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Despite what Hollywood would have you believe, there would be nations that survive a NATO/Russia war. Namely, any nation in the Southern Hemisphere not called Australia or New Zealand. Mother Nature's winds and Father Physic's half lives combine to give unaligned southern hemisphere nations the break of a lifetime. (Or of a species' lifetime I guess?) All that said, you are absolutely right about "spoils". No one is gonna be thinking about "spoils". Probably top of everyone's list of questions will be, "How many warheads are left? And what remnants of NATO or Russia control them?" We're talking about two groups who would have conclusively shown they are perfectly willing to use their nuclear arsenals to achieve their goals. That, combined with the fact that their goals would become a whole lot less lofty overnight makes me think the world would become a very precarious place.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
[flagged]
- madspindel 2y ago
  Yes, and Sweden should claim Rossiya since it was founded by vikings from Roslagen.
- kamikazeturtles 2y ago
  Are you referring to the South China Sea or Israel?
jnurmine 2y ago
Well, yes, but it is not some PR-influenced look good and like us on Facebook -thing for any of the Nordic nations. It's about being prepared for all kinds of eventualities, whatever they might be. For example, last year and early this year heavy winds fell trees on electric lines both in Finland and Sweden, cutting off electricity locally for many days. There was a pandemic not too long ago. Waterworks problems have happened in the past in Finland and also happened this year in Sweden. DDoSing happens here and there, it can impact banks and such. In addition, grayzone/hybrid operations i.e. all kinds of stupid bullying are constantly conducted: for example, earlier today a submarine cable between Germany and Finland (C-Lion1) was cut, and later today another submarine cable between Lithuania and Sweden was cut as well. Such cables don't just snap by themselves. Like the Finnish page says: "Prepared people cope better". https://www.suomi.fi/guides/preparedness https://www.suomi.fi/guides/preparedness https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/the-brochure-in-case-of-crisis-or-war/download-and-order-the-brochure-in-case-of-crisis-or-war/ https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/the-brochure-in...
- wiml 2y ago
  > Such cables don't just snap by themselves. Your general points are valid, but undersea cables do fail for many reasons. A few moments of googling turns up industry failure statistics. Most are still due to human activity in some way (but unintentional, like an anchor drag) but plenty are due to the natural environment of the sea floor.
euroderf 2y ago
No need for artillery. Drop a big enough A-bomb in the right place in the Gulf of Finland, and it does nil in most of the gulf but it does send a tsunami straight up to St Petersburg. Thus the rationale for that causeway/seawall they built for the A118 thru Kronstadt.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

mdp2021 2y ago

> conventional artillery to turn St Petersburg to rubble Well, let's really hope not. (Let us hope that nothing of worth is ever destroyed, and let us not speak about destruction of universal goods lightly.) Edit: let us be even more clear (possibly in light of the dismissing feelers who just passed by). If you are into destruction of the cultural heritage, you are the enemy. Complexities just come later.

BobaFloutist 2y ago
Putin is hoping and taking action to ensure otherwise.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  That reinforces my point instead of changing it. Destruction of the Worth = bad. I.e. it is part of what should be fought.
soco 2y ago
Are human lives worthwhile to be destroyed? Are they not universal enough? Because I don't see much respect for those around the world... starting, but not ending there, with the russian soldiers themselves.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  Some will be of the opinion that what may not respect cultural heritage may not have the same worth. Sorry. Edit: I will express it again, and to stress the point: some things are the fruit of the drive towards construction. Some other things may be destroyers. So, it all depends. No, we will not attribute worth to destroyers.
sgjohnson 2y ago
No such thing as cultural heritage if destroying it would achieve the war goal of significantly lower the enemy's morale, irrespective of what international law says about it.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  It's not a matter of law, it's a matter of judgement: in front of a threat to what should be respected every cell in the world should become and antibody to erase what revealed as the lowlest scum from the actors.

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]

bilbo0s 2y ago

Uh.. If we turn St Petersburg into rubble, I doubt anyone will be worrying about a few trifling conventional weapons. NATO and Russia go at it, and we're all just sitting around next month waiting for the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians and South Africans to sort out who is responsible for which relief efforts. Actually, now I think about it, that quad will probably be far more concerned with determining the disposition of the remaining NATO/Russian warheads. So even relief efforts might be impacted by their more pressing concerns. In any case, the world would just be a mess for a good long while.

petesergeant 2y ago
> If we turn St Petersburg into rubble, I doubt anyone will be worrying about a few trifling conventional weapons Yes, exactly, that's why this isn't going to happen.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rootusrootus 2y ago
NATO and Russia go at it and everyone is screwed, there will be no winners, nobody on the sidelines, no picking through the spoils.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Despite what Hollywood would have you believe, there would be nations that survive a NATO/Russia war. Namely, any nation in the Southern Hemisphere not called Australia or New Zealand. Mother Nature's winds and Father Physic's half lives combine to give unaligned southern hemisphere nations the break of a lifetime. (Or of a species' lifetime I guess?) All that said, you are absolutely right about "spoils". No one is gonna be thinking about "spoils". Probably top of everyone's list of questions will be, "How many warheads are left? And what remnants of NATO or Russia control them?" We're talking about two groups who would have conclusively shown they are perfectly willing to use their nuclear arsenals to achieve their goals. That, combined with the fact that their goals would become a whole lot less lofty overnight makes me think the world would become a very precarious place.

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

[flagged]

madspindel 2y ago
Yes, and Sweden should claim Rossiya since it was founded by vikings from Roslagen.
kamikazeturtles 2y ago
Are you referring to the South China Sea or Israel?

jnurmine 2y ago

Well, yes, but it is not some PR-influenced look good and like us on Facebook -thing for any of the Nordic nations. It's about being prepared for all kinds of eventualities, whatever they might be. For example, last year and early this year heavy winds fell trees on electric lines both in Finland and Sweden, cutting off electricity locally for many days. There was a pandemic not too long ago. Waterworks problems have happened in the past in Finland and also happened this year in Sweden. DDoSing happens here and there, it can impact banks and such. In addition, grayzone/hybrid operations i.e. all kinds of stupid bullying are constantly conducted: for example, earlier today a submarine cable between Germany and Finland (C-Lion1) was cut, and later today another submarine cable between Lithuania and Sweden was cut as well. Such cables don't just snap by themselves. Like the Finnish page says: "Prepared people cope better". https://www.suomi.fi/guides/preparedness https://www.suomi.fi/guides/preparedness https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/the-brochure-in-case-of-crisis-or-war/download-and-order-the-brochure-in-case-of-crisis-or-war/ https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/the-brochure-in...

wiml 2y ago
> Such cables don't just snap by themselves. Your general points are valid, but undersea cables do fail for many reasons. A few moments of googling turns up industry failure statistics. Most are still due to human activity in some way (but unintentional, like an anchor drag) but plenty are due to the natural environment of the sea floor.

euroderf 2y ago

No need for artillery. Drop a big enough A-bomb in the right place in the Gulf of Finland, and it does nil in most of the gulf but it does send a tsunami straight up to St Petersburg. Thus the rationale for that causeway/seawall they built for the A118 thru Kronstadt.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]