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It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income c

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

solarpunk 2y ago
>We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities. Good news, these are called "community solar gardens" and they exist all around the USA, here's a large one based in Minneapolis: https://www.cooperativeenergyfutures.com/ https://www.cooperativeenergyfutures.com/
- hedora 2y ago
  Community net monitoring isn’t allowed in California. Instead, PG&E let the grid fall apart, so now they’re charging crippling amounts of money to people that can’t afford solar. On the one hand, with the help of subsidies, our house is off-grid capable, and our power bill is $0-50. On the other hand, there’s a red-tagged neighborhood near by (they built homes despite not having power grid access), and they usually end up having a generator fire take out a few houses every couple of years. Anyway, I really wish California had a second political party (not the GOP).
  - r00fus 2y ago
    PG&E is a factor in net emigration out of CA. Agreed single-party-controlled states are full of inefficiency (aka corruption).
    - entropicdrifter 2y ago
      On the other hand, living in a purple state doesn't necessarily help with corruption either. I live in PA and we had billions "go missing" from our Department of Transportation over the course of over a little over a decade. Things have improved in the last like 6 years or so, but we had to get to the point where our bridges were crumbling and just having permanent detours setup around them first before people really got on a crusade about properly fixing our roads. Josh Shapiro's done a bang-up job actually properly allocating the funds we managed to get from the big infrastructure bill, but that's been a major change from how things have been for the last 30 years I've lived here.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    Net metering?
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    How is it crippling? My 1900 sq. ft. loft in SF cost like $100/mo most months. That’s 5 hours of minimum wage work here. Even the $200 it hit at peak is 10 hours of minimum wage work. That was with 4 people living in it.
- irq-1 2y ago
  > CEF has financed and developed 6.9MW (~$16M) of low-income-accessible community solar arrays that ... offsets the utility bills of over 700 Minnesota households for the next 25 years $16M for 700 homes = $22,857.14/home That's not an investment, it's just charity by other means.
  - solarpunk 2y ago
    That number is in the ballpark of what it costs to install solar on a rooftop here in Minnesota. The other part is these solar gardens don't stop paying for your electric bill if you move, so it's especially equitable for renters.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      6.9MW / 700 homes is 9.85 kW/home. Two of these would do more than that (10.5 kW), for (at current exchange rates) $5934, or just over a quarter that price: https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=solar%20garage https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=sola... And even at that price, it's overlapping in price range with the non-solar equivalents. The funny thing is, I grew up (in the UK) with news stories about how the latest computers were so expensive in the UK that it was cheaper to fly to NYC, buy one, and fly back with it, than to buy local — and now the US is having the same problem in reverse with PV (you might well be able to fit some of the much smaller flexible PV systems I've seen around here in Berlin into oversized luggage). (Sure, I get that big projects aren't exactly the same as small ones… but usually that makes big things cheaper, not more expensive, even for home PV vs. park PV).
      - vel0city 2y ago
        That's just the panels. So, I buy a bunch of panels, they get dropped off by a truck, and then...? I'm going to use slave labor to assemble it all and wire it all up? The price for installed solar in the US isn't high because of the panels. Its high because of the labor costs.
        2y ago
jebarker 2y ago
We need both. There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar and could arguably have a bigger environmental impact if they did since they often also have large homes, big cars etc. If they don't feel strongly about doing it for altruistic reasons then subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. Without subsidies there's really no economic argument for them to do it since the break even times are long and they probably aren't too worried about utility costs.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  Taking one single family home solar does not provide a measurable environmental impact in aggregate. OP doesn't have to pay the electric bill anymore, but the average residential solar install exceeds $30k before credits. Someone has to pay off that loan... Not to mention the Chinese factory that manufactured the solar panels is probably dumping toxic waste chemicals into the local drinking water unabated. We're all too busy patting ourselves on the back for saving the world to consider the impact of the whole lifecycle.
  - jebarker 2y ago
    > Taking one single family home solar does not provide a measurable environmental impact in aggregate. In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar. Are you saying we just shouldn't bother with solar and EVs because not everyone is going to do it? May aswell just stop donating to charity too right? > Someone has to pay off that loan... I think the OP is probably paying for the loan themselves. The subsidies are just a small part of the total cost. > probably dumping toxic waste chemicals... Again, I think everyone would agree that it'd be better if the solar panel production process was totally clean, but the fact it isn't yet doesn't stop solar being a net win.
    - underlipton 2y ago
      >In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar. Assuming that SFH remain the standard. Even with ADUs, that changes. (Idea: subsidize only based on the presence of multifamily on a lot?) >I think the OP is probably paying for the loan themselves. Hm. Knock-on effect. That homeowner now has to command the income to pay for the loan. That changes his job choice, consumption habits. Maybe his boss feels that he has to pay him more to keep him happy (and not another worker). If he has to sell, price has to be higher in order to break even/get a return. Solar is probably a good thing for municipal expenses, re: less strain on the power grid, but you also get a better turn in that regard converting multi-family or non-residential buildings.
outside1234 2y ago
Most of the IRA has actually been spent in red states and rural areas
choilive 2y ago
We do. Through community solar programs low/medium income households can get anywhere from 10%-50% off their electricity supply costs.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  Oh, the low income people only have to pay 50-90% of the costs eh?
  - choilive 2y ago
    Yes..? What are you trying to get at?
epistasis 2y ago
That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much better than those who are least able to pay being made to shoulder the cost and risks of being early adopters.
- plandis 2y ago
  It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar. That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.
  - knappe 2y ago
    Which would be great and all, but they already exist. But rather than take advantage of the cheaper existing solar panels and electric cars we'd rather impose massive tariffs on them because of the country making them.
  - epistasis 2y ago
    That money is spent to fund the capital expenditures and the on-the-production-line R&D that drives down costs. That money that subsidizes purchases of more expensive products also incentivizes all those factories, the things that make them cheaper in the future. > That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH If you can convert this vague statement into a policy with real impacts, there would be tons of people that would love to hear it. Otherwise, it's just wishing the world were different, without a path to completion. Should we all have free energy? Of course! But how do we do it. I'm all ears and hope that you have come up with a defensible policy. (Though ideally you should have shared it 4 years ago, because it's going to be a long time before we have another shot at setting policy, and everybody was begging for ideas like yours back then.)
  - 2y ago
skybrian 2y ago
This seems like an argument for utility-scale solar and batteries, which can be used by everyone. The do-it-yourself approach makes more sense for people who own their own home and can invest in improving it. That’s going to skew towards wealthier people who live in suburban and rural areas.
laidoffamazon 2y ago
The domestic manufacturing component is helpful to many of the people in the "Battery belt" and in auto manufacturing!
ben_w 2y ago
*Waves from Germany* We have self-install balcony PV systems starting at a few hundred euros: https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwerk-400-800-w-2x200w-solarpaneele-inkl-befestigung https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwer... I've been to the US a few times, seen AC hanging out of the windows all over the place. If you can do that, and Germany can do this, why can't you also do this? Now sure, it won't cover 100% of demand, but it will help many of the poorest.
- underlipton 2y ago
  HOA and lease restrictions. Also depends on what exposures you have. One place I lived was exclusively western, the other eastern.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Rhetorically: Do HOA/lease rules that forbid PV not also prohibit AC dangling out the window? If they allow one and prohibit the other, can they not be changed to allow something else that also dangles from the window?
    - underlipton 2y ago
      There'll often be a broad restriction of adornment of any kind outside of a strict list, and/or at the discretion of the HOA/property manager. Many don't allow window AC units. There's a general air of paranoia about anything that could potentially bring down perceived property values, or that might otherwise project a sense that the neighborhood is anything other than a Flanderization of affluence. (There's also a element of social control.) Think historical preservation codes, but for a pile of sticks built in the 80s or 90s.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        Ah, I see. For the whole "land of the free" and "free market" thing, the US seems very not that?
iamleppert 2y ago
Probably found out about the tax credit while wine tasting, diving a Tesla and trading crypto while on the way to buy a new house with RSU's right after was given a bonus for new internal tool development.
j-bos 2y ago
Agreed with the caveat, I'm from a lower income area where solar has been on the up. Panels would get stolen often enough to warrant thoughful consideration.
washadjeffmad 2y ago
Look at what it's solving for. Low income households are not the largest consumers of energy. They may own less efficient appliances, but there are other programs for that, like free home sealing and heat pump installation. One group has insufficiencies that need to be solved, the other, excesses. Lessening dependence on the grid for the ones for whom cost is not a barrier lowers costs for everyone. Now, having some sort of solar community energy bank would eventually be novel, akin to the replaceable battery charge stations for electric scooters in the Pacific Islands. Take your high density 12VDC canisters up, slot them into the locking wells, and get a text when they're full. Dock them onto your appliance circuit when you're home, and enjoy grid-free power for your home or vehicle.
grecy 2y ago
In canada the lower your income the higher the grant for solar and things like insulation and window upgrades, heat pumps, etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

solarpunk 2y ago

>We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities. Good news, these are called "community solar gardens" and they exist all around the USA, here's a large one based in Minneapolis: https://www.cooperativeenergyfutures.com/ https://www.cooperativeenergyfutures.com/

hedora 2y ago
Community net monitoring isn’t allowed in California. Instead, PG&E let the grid fall apart, so now they’re charging crippling amounts of money to people that can’t afford solar. On the one hand, with the help of subsidies, our house is off-grid capable, and our power bill is $0-50. On the other hand, there’s a red-tagged neighborhood near by (they built homes despite not having power grid access), and they usually end up having a generator fire take out a few houses every couple of years. Anyway, I really wish California had a second political party (not the GOP).
- r00fus 2y ago
  PG&E is a factor in net emigration out of CA. Agreed single-party-controlled states are full of inefficiency (aka corruption).
  - entropicdrifter 2y ago
    On the other hand, living in a purple state doesn't necessarily help with corruption either. I live in PA and we had billions "go missing" from our Department of Transportation over the course of over a little over a decade. Things have improved in the last like 6 years or so, but we had to get to the point where our bridges were crumbling and just having permanent detours setup around them first before people really got on a crusade about properly fixing our roads. Josh Shapiro's done a bang-up job actually properly allocating the funds we managed to get from the big infrastructure bill, but that's been a major change from how things have been for the last 30 years I've lived here.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  Net metering?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  How is it crippling? My 1900 sq. ft. loft in SF cost like $100/mo most months. That’s 5 hours of minimum wage work here. Even the $200 it hit at peak is 10 hours of minimum wage work. That was with 4 people living in it.
irq-1 2y ago
> CEF has financed and developed 6.9MW (~$16M) of low-income-accessible community solar arrays that ... offsets the utility bills of over 700 Minnesota households for the next 25 years $16M for 700 homes = $22,857.14/home That's not an investment, it's just charity by other means.
- solarpunk 2y ago
  That number is in the ballpark of what it costs to install solar on a rooftop here in Minnesota. The other part is these solar gardens don't stop paying for your electric bill if you move, so it's especially equitable for renters.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    6.9MW / 700 homes is 9.85 kW/home. Two of these would do more than that (10.5 kW), for (at current exchange rates) $5934, or just over a quarter that price: https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=solar%20garage https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=sola... And even at that price, it's overlapping in price range with the non-solar equivalents. The funny thing is, I grew up (in the UK) with news stories about how the latest computers were so expensive in the UK that it was cheaper to fly to NYC, buy one, and fly back with it, than to buy local — and now the US is having the same problem in reverse with PV (you might well be able to fit some of the much smaller flexible PV systems I've seen around here in Berlin into oversized luggage). (Sure, I get that big projects aren't exactly the same as small ones… but usually that makes big things cheaper, not more expensive, even for home PV vs. park PV).
    - vel0city 2y ago
      That's just the panels. So, I buy a bunch of panels, they get dropped off by a truck, and then...? I'm going to use slave labor to assemble it all and wire it all up? The price for installed solar in the US isn't high because of the panels. Its high because of the labor costs.
      - 2y ago

jebarker 2y ago

We need both. There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar and could arguably have a bigger environmental impact if they did since they often also have large homes, big cars etc. If they don't feel strongly about doing it for altruistic reasons then subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. Without subsidies there's really no economic argument for them to do it since the break even times are long and they probably aren't too worried about utility costs.

wannacboatmovie 2y ago
Taking one single family home solar does not provide a measurable environmental impact in aggregate. OP doesn't have to pay the electric bill anymore, but the average residential solar install exceeds $30k before credits. Someone has to pay off that loan... Not to mention the Chinese factory that manufactured the solar panels is probably dumping toxic waste chemicals into the local drinking water unabated. We're all too busy patting ourselves on the back for saving the world to consider the impact of the whole lifecycle.
- jebarker 2y ago
  > Taking one single family home solar does not provide a measurable environmental impact in aggregate. In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar. Are you saying we just shouldn't bother with solar and EVs because not everyone is going to do it? May aswell just stop donating to charity too right? > Someone has to pay off that loan... I think the OP is probably paying for the loan themselves. The subsidies are just a small part of the total cost. > probably dumping toxic waste chemicals... Again, I think everyone would agree that it'd be better if the solar panel production process was totally clean, but the fact it isn't yet doesn't stop solar being a net win.
  - underlipton 2y ago
    >In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar. Assuming that SFH remain the standard. Even with ADUs, that changes. (Idea: subsidize only based on the presence of multifamily on a lot?) >I think the OP is probably paying for the loan themselves. Hm. Knock-on effect. That homeowner now has to command the income to pay for the loan. That changes his job choice, consumption habits. Maybe his boss feels that he has to pay him more to keep him happy (and not another worker). If he has to sell, price has to be higher in order to break even/get a return. Solar is probably a good thing for municipal expenses, re: less strain on the power grid, but you also get a better turn in that regard converting multi-family or non-residential buildings.

outside1234 2y ago

Most of the IRA has actually been spent in red states and rural areas

choilive 2y ago

We do. Through community solar programs low/medium income households can get anywhere from 10%-50% off their electricity supply costs.

itsoktocry 2y ago
Oh, the low income people only have to pay 50-90% of the costs eh?
- choilive 2y ago
  Yes..? What are you trying to get at?

epistasis 2y ago

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much better than those who are least able to pay being made to shoulder the cost and risks of being early adopters.

plandis 2y ago
It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar. That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.
- knappe 2y ago
  Which would be great and all, but they already exist. But rather than take advantage of the cheaper existing solar panels and electric cars we'd rather impose massive tariffs on them because of the country making them.
- epistasis 2y ago
  That money is spent to fund the capital expenditures and the on-the-production-line R&D that drives down costs. That money that subsidizes purchases of more expensive products also incentivizes all those factories, the things that make them cheaper in the future. > That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH If you can convert this vague statement into a policy with real impacts, there would be tons of people that would love to hear it. Otherwise, it's just wishing the world were different, without a path to completion. Should we all have free energy? Of course! But how do we do it. I'm all ears and hope that you have come up with a defensible policy. (Though ideally you should have shared it 4 years ago, because it's going to be a long time before we have another shot at setting policy, and everybody was begging for ideas like yours back then.)
- 2y ago

skybrian 2y ago

This seems like an argument for utility-scale solar and batteries, which can be used by everyone. The do-it-yourself approach makes more sense for people who own their own home and can invest in improving it. That’s going to skew towards wealthier people who live in suburban and rural areas.

laidoffamazon 2y ago

The domestic manufacturing component is helpful to many of the people in the "Battery belt" and in auto manufacturing!

ben_w 2y ago

*Waves from Germany* We have self-install balcony PV systems starting at a few hundred euros: https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwerk-400-800-w-2x200w-solarpaneele-inkl-befestigung https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwer... I've been to the US a few times, seen AC hanging out of the windows all over the place. If you can do that, and Germany can do this, why can't you also do this? Now sure, it won't cover 100% of demand, but it will help many of the poorest.

underlipton 2y ago
HOA and lease restrictions. Also depends on what exposures you have. One place I lived was exclusively western, the other eastern.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Rhetorically: Do HOA/lease rules that forbid PV not also prohibit AC dangling out the window? If they allow one and prohibit the other, can they not be changed to allow something else that also dangles from the window?
  - underlipton 2y ago
    There'll often be a broad restriction of adornment of any kind outside of a strict list, and/or at the discretion of the HOA/property manager. Many don't allow window AC units. There's a general air of paranoia about anything that could potentially bring down perceived property values, or that might otherwise project a sense that the neighborhood is anything other than a Flanderization of affluence. (There's also a element of social control.) Think historical preservation codes, but for a pile of sticks built in the 80s or 90s.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Ah, I see. For the whole "land of the free" and "free market" thing, the US seems very not that?

iamleppert 2y ago

Probably found out about the tax credit while wine tasting, diving a Tesla and trading crypto while on the way to buy a new house with RSU's right after was given a bonus for new internal tool development.

j-bos 2y ago

Agreed with the caveat, I'm from a lower income area where solar has been on the up. Panels would get stolen often enough to warrant thoughful consideration.

washadjeffmad 2y ago

Look at what it's solving for. Low income households are not the largest consumers of energy. They may own less efficient appliances, but there are other programs for that, like free home sealing and heat pump installation. One group has insufficiencies that need to be solved, the other, excesses. Lessening dependence on the grid for the ones for whom cost is not a barrier lowers costs for everyone. Now, having some sort of solar community energy bank would eventually be novel, akin to the replaceable battery charge stations for electric scooters in the Pacific Islands. Take your high density 12VDC canisters up, slot them into the locking wells, and get a text when they're full. Dock them onto your appliance circuit when you're home, and enjoy grid-free power for your home or vehicle.

grecy 2y ago

In canada the lower your income the higher the grant for solar and things like insulation and window upgrades, heat pumps, etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]