5 ms·

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

kube-system 2y ago
Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.
- redwall_hp 2y ago
  They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising. Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough. At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill. And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.
  - floxy 2y ago
    The "S" trim of the current Nissan Leaf (with the 40 kwh battery) weighs 3509 lbs. https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf
sgerenser 2y ago
PHEVs generally weigh much less than a full EV with equivalent range. Doesn’t seem very wasteful to me.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  And you get a big energy win with regenerative braking. GP's argument can be countered with basically every hybrid getting better mileage than its ICE sibling in city traffic.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?
      - vundercind 2y ago
        I'd guess it has something to do with its unusual drivetrain. It can operate: 1) fully electric, 2) fully electric but with gas used in generator-mode to supply power to the electric drive train, 3) gas engine mechanically powering the wheels (like a normal ICE car). I'd expect it operates in mode 2 a lot when at highway speeds, but not accelerating.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        I believe the Prius is either in mode 1 or 3. Never heard that it has a generator capability, unless newer models have changed?
        numpad0 2y ago
        Prius "eCVT" is a special planetary gearset that all gears are powered. ICE is connected to the planets, input and output has the alternator and traction motors. Difference in resistance between two motors is imparted to the ICE, achieving power mix and generation control. It's a really simple and clever solution. So much so that brain hurts to think about
freeone3000 2y ago
Or, getting at what is actually desired, a car that can be a wall-charged EV for in-town trips and daily commuting but can use the existing gasoline distribution network for long trips or in emergencies. We’re in a transition state, this isn’t an unreasonable ask.
short_sells_poo 2y ago
Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on electric power - even if you are lugging around an entire ICE power train - and then also take the family out to the countryside over the weekend. Without the having to deal with a bunch of annoyed passangers when you are stuck midway through your journey and the charging station you are trying to use is giving you the massively helpeful error message of "Charging failed, please try again later".
- some_random 2y ago
  I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.
  - short_sells_poo 2y ago
    I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...
    - some_random 2y ago
      No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.
      - short_sells_poo 2y ago
        > Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits. So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably charge EVs, ICE would only have niche advantages.
aoanevdus 2y ago
Pure EVs also waste tons of energy, because they lug around a huge battery that you barely use for most trips. The battery pack in a Model Y weighs 1700 lbs and provides 330 miles of range. A RAV4 Prime (PHEV) has a 14.5 gallon gas tank, which provides 500 miles of range from 90 lbs of gas - in addition to the smaller 300 lb battery pack providing 42 miles range. The additional weight of the drivetrain components offsets the savings from not lugging around a huge battery. Overall, the vehicles end up with similar weight, but the RAV4 has much longer range. By default, the RAV4 prime runs on EV mode until the battery runs down. With both vehicles, you’re taking an efficiency hit on the average drive for having the option of taking longer trips. Of course, both vehicles are a big environmental win over old ICE cars, because they will move you more miles per carbon emitted. Which one works better for you depends on your use-case. If you want to lower the environmental impact if you commute even more, ride a bicycle or something.

kube-system 2y ago

Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.

redwall_hp 2y ago
They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising. Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough. At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill. And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.
- floxy 2y ago
  The "S" trim of the current Nissan Leaf (with the 40 kwh battery) weighs 3509 lbs. https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf

sgerenser 2y ago

PHEVs generally weigh much less than a full EV with equivalent range. Doesn’t seem very wasteful to me.

maxerickson 2y ago
And you get a big energy win with regenerative braking. GP's argument can be countered with basically every hybrid getting better mileage than its ICE sibling in city traffic.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?
    - vundercind 2y ago
      I'd guess it has something to do with its unusual drivetrain. It can operate: 1) fully electric, 2) fully electric but with gas used in generator-mode to supply power to the electric drive train, 3) gas engine mechanically powering the wheels (like a normal ICE car). I'd expect it operates in mode 2 a lot when at highway speeds, but not accelerating.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        I believe the Prius is either in mode 1 or 3. Never heard that it has a generator capability, unless newer models have changed?
        numpad0 2y ago
        Prius "eCVT" is a special planetary gearset that all gears are powered. ICE is connected to the planets, input and output has the alternator and traction motors. Difference in resistance between two motors is imparted to the ICE, achieving power mix and generation control. It's a really simple and clever solution. So much so that brain hurts to think about

freeone3000 2y ago

Or, getting at what is actually desired, a car that can be a wall-charged EV for in-town trips and daily commuting but can use the existing gasoline distribution network for long trips or in emergencies. We’re in a transition state, this isn’t an unreasonable ask.

short_sells_poo 2y ago

Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on electric power - even if you are lugging around an entire ICE power train - and then also take the family out to the countryside over the weekend. Without the having to deal with a bunch of annoyed passangers when you are stuck midway through your journey and the charging station you are trying to use is giving you the massively helpeful error message of "Charging failed, please try again later".

some_random 2y ago
I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.
- short_sells_poo 2y ago
  I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...
  - some_random 2y ago
    No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.
    - short_sells_poo 2y ago
      > Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits. So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably charge EVs, ICE would only have niche advantages.

aoanevdus 2y ago

Pure EVs also waste tons of energy, because they lug around a huge battery that you barely use for most trips. The battery pack in a Model Y weighs 1700 lbs and provides 330 miles of range. A RAV4 Prime (PHEV) has a 14.5 gallon gas tank, which provides 500 miles of range from 90 lbs of gas - in addition to the smaller 300 lb battery pack providing 42 miles range. The additional weight of the drivetrain components offsets the savings from not lugging around a huge battery. Overall, the vehicles end up with similar weight, but the RAV4 has much longer range. By default, the RAV4 prime runs on EV mode until the battery runs down. With both vehicles, you’re taking an efficiency hit on the average drive for having the option of taking longer trips. Of course, both vehicles are a big environmental win over old ICE cars, because they will move you more miles per carbon emitted. Which one works better for you depends on your use-case. If you want to lower the environmental impact if you commute even more, ride a bicycle or something.