5 ms·

That makes sense, but I can see the argument that not all features need to be open to consumers.

by codeka 14y ago

jonah 14y ago
That seems counter to the "we want full access to our systems and hardware" position commonly taken on HN. It sounds very much like advocating for Apple's Gatekeeper [1] since it will keep unauthorized software from running on OS x. [1] http://www.apple.com/osx/what-is/security.html http://www.apple.com/osx/what-is/security.html
- codeka 14y ago
  Yes, you're right. And thinking about it, I think projectedoptics's solution is just better all-round anyway - why can you connect to the OBD at all while the alarm is armed?
  - lmm 14y ago
    If you couldn't, what would dealers (or anyone) do when a customer has lost their keys?
rdl 14y ago
Attackers might work for a dealer or otherwise fully decode the system. The only way to build a system like this securely is to have securely-held keys (cryptographic, not physical; physical locks are all easy to break), and ideally published and reviewed code for the security system, same as any other security system. (I've actually thought about building a secure ignition system for cars, mainly to solve the car bomb problem -- the car responds outside an explosive radius when interrogated to tell you no one has tampered with it since you've left it. Theft is a financial problem, but bombs (or trackers, or whatever) attached to cars is a more serious problem (for a smaller subset of people). I solved this problem by just leaving my car unlocked with a guy with an AK guarding it, though.)
- stcredzero 14y ago
  I solved this problem by just leaving my car unlocked with a guy with an AK guarding it, though. How resistant is he to femme fatales?
  - rdl 14y ago
    Already had 3 wives, didn't need another.
__alexs 14y ago
But I'd rather not have to pay $200 for a spare key thanks...
- jrabone 14y ago
  Um, it's a GBP 40K car; I don't care.
  - __alexs 14y ago
    OBD-II is used on loads of vehicles. If the regulation didn't mandate that this was an open protocol in 10 years every $500 beater is going to be a write off as soon as you lose the keys.
    - jrabone 14y ago
      Well, if that means an end to keyless / smart fob systems, I'm all for it; they are nothing but trouble in my opinion. Right now, I think the OBD port should be read-only unless a registered key is present, and recoding the ECU to accept a new key should require more than just physical access. People don't expect to be able to recode their front door to accept a new blank key - why should a car be different?
      - jvdongen 14y ago
        A skilled locksmith or someone with a serious interest in locks will have no problem [1] to open your front door without any damage using a lock pick tool [2]. If there's no need for said lock to survive, a selection of power tools make it even easier. [edit] Which is not to say that cars should be easy to pry open of course ... [1] in most cases, high-end specialized locks can be an exception. [2] see http://www.lockpicks.com/ http://www.lockpicks.com/ for examples.
        jrabone 14y ago
        That's not the point; I don't expect to be able to walk up to your front door with a random Yale key, jam it in and out a few times and have your lock reconfigured to accept my key instead of yours. That's what's happening here - it's not as sophisticated as a lock pick attack, nor as brute force as smashing the dashboard and shorting the appropriate wires. It's a blind spot in the system that shouldn't exist if the car was locked. The OBD port simply shouldn't be physically connected if the doors are locked. A relay on the CAN bus pins trigged from the central locking might be a start.
jrabone 14y ago
Amusingly enough most of them aren't - OBD access to interesting features (as opposed to a very limited standard set) usually costs a LOT of money. $10K one-off charge plus an update subscription for example. OBD-II has essentially failed by allowing so-called "extended" PIDs - which all manufacturers define in their own specific ways. See the Torque forum for endless threads of people wanting extended PIDs for specific models to use with the Torque OBD app. I suspect this is one reason why good OBD scan tools cost a lot more than the parts cost of an ELM chipset and a few sockets - a trivial adapter costs £20, but a Bavarian Tech scan tool for BMW costs £200, presumably to recoup the costs of buying access to the extended PIDs.

That makes sense, but I can see the argument that not all features need to be open to consumers.

by codeka 14y ago

That makes sense, but I can see the argument that not all features need to be open to consumers.

jonah 14y ago

That seems counter to the "we want full access to our systems and hardware" position commonly taken on HN. It sounds very much like advocating for Apple's Gatekeeper [1] since it will keep unauthorized software from running on OS x. [1] http://www.apple.com/osx/what-is/security.html http://www.apple.com/osx/what-is/security.html

codeka 14y ago
Yes, you're right. And thinking about it, I think projectedoptics's solution is just better all-round anyway - why can you connect to the OBD at all while the alarm is armed?
- lmm 14y ago
  If you couldn't, what would dealers (or anyone) do when a customer has lost their keys?

rdl 14y ago

Attackers might work for a dealer or otherwise fully decode the system. The only way to build a system like this securely is to have securely-held keys (cryptographic, not physical; physical locks are all easy to break), and ideally published and reviewed code for the security system, same as any other security system. (I've actually thought about building a secure ignition system for cars, mainly to solve the car bomb problem -- the car responds outside an explosive radius when interrogated to tell you no one has tampered with it since you've left it. Theft is a financial problem, but bombs (or trackers, or whatever) attached to cars is a more serious problem (for a smaller subset of people). I solved this problem by just leaving my car unlocked with a guy with an AK guarding it, though.)

stcredzero 14y ago
I solved this problem by just leaving my car unlocked with a guy with an AK guarding it, though. How resistant is he to femme fatales?
- rdl 14y ago
  Already had 3 wives, didn't need another.

__alexs 14y ago

But I'd rather not have to pay $200 for a spare key thanks...

jrabone 14y ago
Um, it's a GBP 40K car; I don't care.
- __alexs 14y ago
  OBD-II is used on loads of vehicles. If the regulation didn't mandate that this was an open protocol in 10 years every $500 beater is going to be a write off as soon as you lose the keys.
  - jrabone 14y ago
    Well, if that means an end to keyless / smart fob systems, I'm all for it; they are nothing but trouble in my opinion. Right now, I think the OBD port should be read-only unless a registered key is present, and recoding the ECU to accept a new key should require more than just physical access. People don't expect to be able to recode their front door to accept a new blank key - why should a car be different?
    - jvdongen 14y ago
      A skilled locksmith or someone with a serious interest in locks will have no problem [1] to open your front door without any damage using a lock pick tool [2]. If there's no need for said lock to survive, a selection of power tools make it even easier. [edit] Which is not to say that cars should be easy to pry open of course ... [1] in most cases, high-end specialized locks can be an exception. [2] see http://www.lockpicks.com/ http://www.lockpicks.com/ for examples.
      - jrabone 14y ago
        That's not the point; I don't expect to be able to walk up to your front door with a random Yale key, jam it in and out a few times and have your lock reconfigured to accept my key instead of yours. That's what's happening here - it's not as sophisticated as a lock pick attack, nor as brute force as smashing the dashboard and shorting the appropriate wires. It's a blind spot in the system that shouldn't exist if the car was locked. The OBD port simply shouldn't be physically connected if the doors are locked. A relay on the CAN bus pins trigged from the central locking might be a start.

jrabone 14y ago

Amusingly enough most of them aren't - OBD access to interesting features (as opposed to a very limited standard set) usually costs a LOT of money. $10K one-off charge plus an update subscription for example. OBD-II has essentially failed by allowing so-called "extended" PIDs - which all manufacturers define in their own specific ways. See the Torque forum for endless threads of people wanting extended PIDs for specific models to use with the Torque OBD app. I suspect this is one reason why good OBD scan tools cost a lot more than the parts cost of an ELM chipset and a few sockets - a trivial adapter costs £20, but a Bavarian Tech scan tool for BMW costs £200, presumably to recoup the costs of buying access to the extended PIDs.