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To me the biggest takeaway is that Apple is sufficiently paranoid to add this feature. Some people (like John Gruber) advocate for activating bio lockout at the

by Shank 2y ago

To me the biggest takeaway is that Apple is sufficiently paranoid to add this feature. Some people (like John Gruber) advocate for activating bio lockout at the border by squeezing the volume and power buttons. I would say if you’re the type of person who would do this, you should go one step further and power off. Similarly, if you’re in a situation where you cannot guarantee your phone’s security because it’s leaving your possession, and you’re sufficiently worried, again, power off fully.

486sx33 2y ago
If I had to guess, there must have been an exploit in the wild that took advantage of this. It sounds like it eliminates the oldest tools in one swoop. Which is pretty sweet
- gruez 2y ago
  Even without an exploit in the wild, having such a feature is critical for security. Otherwise any device that's seized by police can be kept powered on indefinitely, until firms like Cellebrite can find an exploit.
  - privacy_second 2y ago
    [dead]
vsl 2y ago
Doesn't the volume+power gesture transition into BFU, i.e. be equivalent to power-cycling?
- jonpalmisc 2y ago
  No. This is a myth, and while it does force you to enter your password instead of using biometrics on the next unlock, it is not the same as returning to BFU.
phinnaeus 2y ago
What do you do if you’re at the border and they demand both the physical device and the password? Let’s assume “get back on the plane and leave” is not a viable option.
- mzhaase 2y ago
  Burner phone
- cherryteastain 2y ago
  GrapheneOS duress password [1] and user profiles [2] are quite solid solutions for this scenario [1] https://grapheneos.org/features#duress https://grapheneos.org/features#duress [2] https://grapheneos.org/features#improved-user-profiles https://grapheneos.org/features#improved-user-profiles
  - andyjohnson0 2y ago
    From the link: > GrapheneOS provides users with the ability to set a duress PIN/Password that will irreversibly wipe the device (along with any installed eSIMs) once entered anywhere where the device credentials are requested (on the lockscreen, along with any such prompt in the OS). In a border interrogation scenario, isn't that just likely to get you arrested for destroying evidence?
    - verandaguy 2y ago
      Depends on the border. In most democracies, and at most borders, and in most LE cases, there is a line between “destruction of my own property/data” and “destruction of evidence,” where the latter usually needs a court document notifying the subject of the potential charge of their requirement to preserve evidence (for example, a subpoena, or in some cases, a direct request to avoid spoliation).
      - _1tem 2y ago
        Theory. This is not how things work in practice, even in "democracies". Speaking as a person who has been harassed at the US border from Canada many times, I've learned it depends more on how the border agent "feels" about you. These people are often uneducated bullies who don't know or don't care about the law anyway. And if you start objecting on some legal basis, they can legally make things a LOT harder for you, including simply denying entry for no reason (yes, they have such a right). Better to cooperate rather than give the appearance of "destroying evidence" (even if completely legal) or you're in for a world of hurt if you got the wrong guy.
mptest 2y ago
Also, lockdown mode and pair locking your device. Pair locking iirc is how you protect against cellubrite type attacks
maccard 2y ago
> I would say if you’re the type of person who would do this, you should go one step further and power off. I'd travel with a different device, honestly. I can get a new-in-box android device for under £60 from a shop, travel with that, set it up properly on the other side, and then either leave it behind or wipe it again.
- wutwutwat 2y ago
  The £60 burner sounds like a leader on the device security front. No way it could possibly be running an ancient version of android that is no longer getting security patches, or is hacked up to shit by the device manufacture to reskin it and install their vulnerable suite of bloatware, or built off of a base os and firmware flocked to by folks for its ease of being able to gain root access/root it and run whatever you want at the kernel level.
  - kshacker 2y ago
    It could be doing all that actually but you are not obliged to install all your apps on the burner, just the basic minimum.
    - wutwutwat 2y ago
      You're still walking around with a microphone and gps tracker connected to a cellular network even if the only thing you do is power it on
      - brewdad 2y ago
        If that's your threat model, don't carry ANY phone. Probably best not to carry any modern electronic device at all.
        wutwutwat 2y ago
        Real criminals who don't want to be caught don't carry phones for this exact reason.
wang_li 2y ago
> advocate for activating bio lockout at the border This is a terrible idea. When you're crossing a border you have to submit to the rules of entry. If one of those rules is that you let them create an image of your phone with all of its contents, that's the rule. If you say no, then, if you're lucky, you get to turn around and return to where you came from. If you're not lucky, then you get to go to jail. What needs doing is the ability to make a backup then a way to reconcile the backup at a later date with the contents of a device. That is, I should be able to backup my phone to my home computer (or cloud I guess) and then wipe my phone or selectively delete contents. Then I travel abroad, take photos and movies, exchange messages with people, and so on. Then when I get home I should be able to restore the contents of my phone that were deleted without having to wipe all the new stuff from the trip.

by Shank 2y ago

486sx33 2y ago

If I had to guess, there must have been an exploit in the wild that took advantage of this. It sounds like it eliminates the oldest tools in one swoop. Which is pretty sweet

gruez 2y ago
Even without an exploit in the wild, having such a feature is critical for security. Otherwise any device that's seized by police can be kept powered on indefinitely, until firms like Cellebrite can find an exploit.
- privacy_second 2y ago
  [dead]

vsl 2y ago

Doesn't the volume+power gesture transition into BFU, i.e. be equivalent to power-cycling?

jonpalmisc 2y ago
No. This is a myth, and while it does force you to enter your password instead of using biometrics on the next unlock, it is not the same as returning to BFU.

phinnaeus 2y ago

What do you do if you’re at the border and they demand both the physical device and the password? Let’s assume “get back on the plane and leave” is not a viable option.

mzhaase 2y ago
Burner phone
cherryteastain 2y ago
GrapheneOS duress password [1] and user profiles [2] are quite solid solutions for this scenario [1] https://grapheneos.org/features#duress https://grapheneos.org/features#duress [2] https://grapheneos.org/features#improved-user-profiles https://grapheneos.org/features#improved-user-profiles
- andyjohnson0 2y ago
  From the link: > GrapheneOS provides users with the ability to set a duress PIN/Password that will irreversibly wipe the device (along with any installed eSIMs) once entered anywhere where the device credentials are requested (on the lockscreen, along with any such prompt in the OS). In a border interrogation scenario, isn't that just likely to get you arrested for destroying evidence?
  - verandaguy 2y ago
    Depends on the border. In most democracies, and at most borders, and in most LE cases, there is a line between “destruction of my own property/data” and “destruction of evidence,” where the latter usually needs a court document notifying the subject of the potential charge of their requirement to preserve evidence (for example, a subpoena, or in some cases, a direct request to avoid spoliation).
    - _1tem 2y ago
      Theory. This is not how things work in practice, even in "democracies". Speaking as a person who has been harassed at the US border from Canada many times, I've learned it depends more on how the border agent "feels" about you. These people are often uneducated bullies who don't know or don't care about the law anyway. And if you start objecting on some legal basis, they can legally make things a LOT harder for you, including simply denying entry for no reason (yes, they have such a right). Better to cooperate rather than give the appearance of "destroying evidence" (even if completely legal) or you're in for a world of hurt if you got the wrong guy.

mptest 2y ago

Also, lockdown mode and pair locking your device. Pair locking iirc is how you protect against cellubrite type attacks

maccard 2y ago

> I would say if you’re the type of person who would do this, you should go one step further and power off. I'd travel with a different device, honestly. I can get a new-in-box android device for under £60 from a shop, travel with that, set it up properly on the other side, and then either leave it behind or wipe it again.

wutwutwat 2y ago
The £60 burner sounds like a leader on the device security front. No way it could possibly be running an ancient version of android that is no longer getting security patches, or is hacked up to shit by the device manufacture to reskin it and install their vulnerable suite of bloatware, or built off of a base os and firmware flocked to by folks for its ease of being able to gain root access/root it and run whatever you want at the kernel level.
- kshacker 2y ago
  It could be doing all that actually but you are not obliged to install all your apps on the burner, just the basic minimum.
  - wutwutwat 2y ago
    You're still walking around with a microphone and gps tracker connected to a cellular network even if the only thing you do is power it on
    - brewdad 2y ago
      If that's your threat model, don't carry ANY phone. Probably best not to carry any modern electronic device at all.
      - wutwutwat 2y ago
        Real criminals who don't want to be caught don't carry phones for this exact reason.

wang_li 2y ago

> advocate for activating bio lockout at the border This is a terrible idea. When you're crossing a border you have to submit to the rules of entry. If one of those rules is that you let them create an image of your phone with all of its contents, that's the rule. If you say no, then, if you're lucky, you get to turn around and return to where you came from. If you're not lucky, then you get to go to jail. What needs doing is the ability to make a backup then a way to reconcile the backup at a later date with the contents of a device. That is, I should be able to backup my phone to my home computer (or cloud I guess) and then wipe my phone or selectively delete contents. Then I travel abroad, take photos and movies, exchange messages with people, and so on. Then when I get home I should be able to restore the contents of my phone that were deleted without having to wipe all the new stuff from the trip.