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It takes two to tango: a two state solution was always supported by Israelis and Jewish people around the world.

by wslh 2y ago

talldayo 2y ago
I don't disagree. But two wrongs don't add up to one right, so nobody is really looking at the current situation as a net-positive. Israel is a colonial state that currently has a long way to go in renouncing the territory they do not rightfully own. It's the majority opinion, not an extremist or misconstrued take. Nobody ever had to "develop the idea" because it has been said by every single country that is not Israel or the United States.
- wslh 2y ago
  Israel is not a member of the ICC, am I right?
  - talldayo 2y ago
    Well, let it never be said that I didn't attempt to explain it in good faith.
    - wslh 2y ago
      I appreciate that.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    Israel is a member of the UN and the ICJ, the UN has several resolutions ordering Israel to stop their colonial conduct, and the ICJ has a couple of rulings ordering the same. Most relevant here is Israel’s participation of the fourth Geneva convention which forbids moving civilian populations to and from occupied areas, this makes all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Golan Heights (and probably also East Jerusalem) illegal. The ICC does not need to rule on this as the criminal conduct here is government policy, and Israel needs to stop it.
    - wslh 2y ago
      Do you know what other countries are not respecting UN resolutions? So, Israel is part of many countries not accepting UN resolutions, and instead of saying "Israel needs to stop it" you should mention every country that is not respecting UN resolutions and acting similarly.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        Nobody here is trying to appeal to higher authority, really. The UN is relevant insofar as it represents the concerns of the rest of the world, and the decorum they consider acceptable for international conduct. You don't have to defend Israel's digressions here, but it certainly would help make your argument more accessible. Defending everything Israel and the IDF has done is not something even the most die-hard Zionist apologists will do. Israel has a responsibility to end their colonial ambitions regardless of how other nations feel about it. If they do not rise above the conditions of unjust political persecution that necessitated the creation of Israel in the first place, they are bound to succumb to it's failures as an unsustainable double standard.
        wslh 2y ago
        I don't see the world in that way. I think that if you really want a change you should go and fight or be a political incumbent to influence on an outcome.
        runarberg 2y ago
        The thing about an occupation, is there is no political avenue for the occupied to get rid of the occupation, except via the UN through resolutions, or via an arbitration through the ICJ. The only other alternative here is direct action, including violent and non-violent resistance. Israel is not abiding to UN resolutions, nor ICJ arbitration, and it is non-violent resistance have so far been met with violence by the occupier. That does not leave many option for Palestinians, does it. And I would certainly say Palestinians have fought, and tried to get rid of the occupation that way. Personally, I really wished Israel would have responded to the non-violent option. A lot of lives would have been spared. And, that is sort of the point of the UN in the first place.
reducesuffering 2y ago
Supported by some Israelis and Jewish people. Remember, their Prime Minister Rabin was assassinated by the Israeli far-right because they were fiercely against the Oslo Accord negotiations with Palestinians. Netanyahu doesn't believe in a two-state solution, because Ben-Gvir is in his cabinet, he dismissed Gallant, a two-state moderate, and just promoted two fierce one-state supporters to the next highest levels in cabinet. Israel is still on track to increase one-state annexation because there isn't a majority of Israelis who desire two-state enough to throw them out. Their new Minister of Defense, Israel Katz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz#Peace_and_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz#Peace_and_security The new Minister of Foreign Affairs, Gideon Sa'ar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Sa%27ar#Likud_leadership_run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Sa%27ar#Likud_leadershi...

It takes two to tango: a two state solution was always supported by Israelis and Jewish people around the world.

by wslh 2y ago

It takes two to tango: a two state solution was always supported by Israelis and Jewish people around the world.

I don't disagree. But two wrongs don't add up to one right, so nobody is really looking at the current situation as a net-positive. Israel is a colonial state that currently has a long way to go in renouncing the territory they do not rightfully own. It's the majority opinion, not an extremist or misconstrued take. Nobody ever had to "develop the idea" because it has been said by every single country that is not Israel or the United States.

wslh 2y ago
Israel is not a member of the ICC, am I right?
- talldayo 2y ago
  Well, let it never be said that I didn't attempt to explain it in good faith.
  - wslh 2y ago
    I appreciate that.
- runarberg 2y ago
  Israel is a member of the UN and the ICJ, the UN has several resolutions ordering Israel to stop their colonial conduct, and the ICJ has a couple of rulings ordering the same. Most relevant here is Israel’s participation of the fourth Geneva convention which forbids moving civilian populations to and from occupied areas, this makes all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Golan Heights (and probably also East Jerusalem) illegal. The ICC does not need to rule on this as the criminal conduct here is government policy, and Israel needs to stop it.
  - wslh 2y ago
    Do you know what other countries are not respecting UN resolutions? So, Israel is part of many countries not accepting UN resolutions, and instead of saying "Israel needs to stop it" you should mention every country that is not respecting UN resolutions and acting similarly.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Nobody here is trying to appeal to higher authority, really. The UN is relevant insofar as it represents the concerns of the rest of the world, and the decorum they consider acceptable for international conduct. You don't have to defend Israel's digressions here, but it certainly would help make your argument more accessible. Defending everything Israel and the IDF has done is not something even the most die-hard Zionist apologists will do. Israel has a responsibility to end their colonial ambitions regardless of how other nations feel about it. If they do not rise above the conditions of unjust political persecution that necessitated the creation of Israel in the first place, they are bound to succumb to it's failures as an unsustainable double standard.
      - wslh 2y ago
        I don't see the world in that way. I think that if you really want a change you should go and fight or be a political incumbent to influence on an outcome.
        runarberg 2y ago
        The thing about an occupation, is there is no political avenue for the occupied to get rid of the occupation, except via the UN through resolutions, or via an arbitration through the ICJ. The only other alternative here is direct action, including violent and non-violent resistance. Israel is not abiding to UN resolutions, nor ICJ arbitration, and it is non-violent resistance have so far been met with violence by the occupier. That does not leave many option for Palestinians, does it. And I would certainly say Palestinians have fought, and tried to get rid of the occupation that way. Personally, I really wished Israel would have responded to the non-violent option. A lot of lives would have been spared. And, that is sort of the point of the UN in the first place.

reducesuffering 2y ago

Supported by some Israelis and Jewish people. Remember, their Prime Minister Rabin was assassinated by the Israeli far-right because they were fiercely against the Oslo Accord negotiations with Palestinians. Netanyahu doesn't believe in a two-state solution, because Ben-Gvir is in his cabinet, he dismissed Gallant, a two-state moderate, and just promoted two fierce one-state supporters to the next highest levels in cabinet. Israel is still on track to increase one-state annexation because there isn't a majority of Israelis who desire two-state enough to throw them out. Their new Minister of Defense, Israel Katz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz#Peace_and_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz#Peace_and_security The new Minister of Foreign Affairs, Gideon Sa'ar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Sa%27ar#Likud_leadership_run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Sa%27ar#Likud_leadershi...