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I'm pretty sure the idea that older people should be denied treatment for conditions that are common at their age [1] because years or decades earlier they did

by tzs 2y ago

I'm pretty sure the idea that older people should be denied treatment for conditions that are common at their age [1] because years or decades earlier they did something that has no relation whatsoever to that condition is in fact controversial. [1] Nearly a quarter of people have cataracts before 70 and 10% of people have some form of age-related macular degeneration by 50.

rayiner 2y ago
Denying people welfare benefits for antisocial behavior is not controversial.
- tzs 2y ago
  Say a 68 year old veteran went to a VA doctor for a facial skin cancer, and was denied treatment because when he enlisted 50 years earlier he got a tattoo of his unit on his buttocks. Do you really believe that denial would not be controversial?
  - rayiner 2y ago
    No, but only because he made up for it by being a veteran.
    - tzs 2y ago
      What if he was a retired farmer, the 50 year old tattoo was to commemorate the year he led his high school football team to the state championship, and it was Medicare denying coverage for a facial skin cancer because of that old buttocks tattoo?
      - rayiner 2y ago
        Probably not controversial.
        tzs 2y ago
        I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. About 1/3 of Americans have a tattoo [1]. Of the people without tattoos 66% say seeing a tattoo on someone gives them neither a negative or positive opinion of the person. A tattoo on the buttocks will not cause skin cancer on the face. (There is a small association between tattoos and skin cancer but that is skin cancers at the tattoo sight, and it is not so much that they cause the cancer but rather make it harder to notice the cancer so it tends to be farther along before detected). So I don't see how it could not be controversial to cut of Medicare to someone over something that a solid majority don't care about and that almost certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with their skin cancer. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-americans-have-a-tattoo-including-22-who-have-more-than-one/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-ame...
        tptacek 2y ago
        He's saying he doesn't personally approve of tattoos. I don't think there's any further place you can productively take this conversation.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Medicare isn't "welfare", it's the standard American health system for people over the age of 65. Moreover, there's no good-faith way to call it "welfare". Please stop doing this here; you have other venues for this kind of rhetoric.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Medicare is obviously welfare! It’s a socialized system that involves society paying for medical care for old people, instead of leaving old people or their families to pay for it themselves.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Medicare is obviously welfare! It’s a socialized system where society pays for medical care for old people, instead of leaving old people or their families to pay for it themselves. Of course whenever you have taxpayers paying for something for individuals, those taxpayers may properly decide to exclude undeserving individuals from receiving benefits.
    - tzs 2y ago
      Excluding undeserving individuals from government benefits is not controversial. What would be controversial is classifying people as undeserving for past actions that (1) were and are completely legal, (2) are not even considered to be bad by a large fraction of the country, and (3) have nothing whatsoever to do with what they are being excluded from.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      Well over 90% of Americans aged over 65 are Medicare beneficiaries, most of them having paid into the program throughout their whole lives. I think this argument is probably better suited to your twitter TL.
  - somecontext 2y ago
    > Moreover, there's no good-faith way to call [Medicare] "welfare". For some context, Wikipedia says: > In the United States, depending on the context, the term "welfare" ... can also include social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance, Social Security, and Medicare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_spending#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_spending#United_States

by tzs 2y ago

rayiner 2y ago

Denying people welfare benefits for antisocial behavior is not controversial.

tzs 2y ago
Say a 68 year old veteran went to a VA doctor for a facial skin cancer, and was denied treatment because when he enlisted 50 years earlier he got a tattoo of his unit on his buttocks. Do you really believe that denial would not be controversial?
- rayiner 2y ago
  No, but only because he made up for it by being a veteran.
  - tzs 2y ago
    What if he was a retired farmer, the 50 year old tattoo was to commemorate the year he led his high school football team to the state championship, and it was Medicare denying coverage for a facial skin cancer because of that old buttocks tattoo?
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Probably not controversial.
      - tzs 2y ago
        I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. About 1/3 of Americans have a tattoo [1]. Of the people without tattoos 66% say seeing a tattoo on someone gives them neither a negative or positive opinion of the person. A tattoo on the buttocks will not cause skin cancer on the face. (There is a small association between tattoos and skin cancer but that is skin cancers at the tattoo sight, and it is not so much that they cause the cancer but rather make it harder to notice the cancer so it tends to be farther along before detected). So I don't see how it could not be controversial to cut of Medicare to someone over something that a solid majority don't care about and that almost certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with their skin cancer. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-americans-have-a-tattoo-including-22-who-have-more-than-one/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-ame...
        tptacek 2y ago
        He's saying he doesn't personally approve of tattoos. I don't think there's any further place you can productively take this conversation.
tptacek 2y ago
Medicare isn't "welfare", it's the standard American health system for people over the age of 65. Moreover, there's no good-faith way to call it "welfare". Please stop doing this here; you have other venues for this kind of rhetoric.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Medicare is obviously welfare! It’s a socialized system that involves society paying for medical care for old people, instead of leaving old people or their families to pay for it themselves.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Medicare is obviously welfare! It’s a socialized system where society pays for medical care for old people, instead of leaving old people or their families to pay for it themselves. Of course whenever you have taxpayers paying for something for individuals, those taxpayers may properly decide to exclude undeserving individuals from receiving benefits.
  - tzs 2y ago
    Excluding undeserving individuals from government benefits is not controversial. What would be controversial is classifying people as undeserving for past actions that (1) were and are completely legal, (2) are not even considered to be bad by a large fraction of the country, and (3) have nothing whatsoever to do with what they are being excluded from.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Well over 90% of Americans aged over 65 are Medicare beneficiaries, most of them having paid into the program throughout their whole lives. I think this argument is probably better suited to your twitter TL.
- somecontext 2y ago
  > Moreover, there's no good-faith way to call [Medicare] "welfare". For some context, Wikipedia says: > In the United States, depending on the context, the term "welfare" ... can also include social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance, Social Security, and Medicare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_spending#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_spending#United_States