4 ms·

In practice, none of this impacts your program. The standard advice I give to people messing around with this stuff is, never use the pipe operator. The standar

by jerf 2y ago

In practice, none of this impacts your program. The standard advice I give to people messing around with this stuff is, never use the pipe operator. The standard library already implements all the sensible uses of it. In particular, people tend to read it as the "sum type" operator, which it is not. I kind of wish the syntax has used & instead of |, what it is doing is closer to an "and" then an "or". By the time you know enough to know you can ignore that advice, you will. But you'll also likely find it never comes up, because, again, the standard library has already implemented all the sensible variants of this, not because the standard library is magic but because there's really only a limited number of useful cases anyhow. I haven't gone too crazy with generics, but I have used them nontrivially, even done s could tricks [1], and the pipe operator is not that generally useful. When the generic constraint is an interface with methods is the case that can actually come up, but that makes sense, if generics make sense to you at all. It probably is a good demonstration of the sort of things that come up on generic implementations, though. Despite the rhetoric people often deployed prior to Go having them, no, they are never easy, never without corner cases, never without a lot of complications and tradeoffs under the hood. Even languages designed with them from the beginning have them, just better stuffed under the rug and with less obvious conflict with other features. They're obviously not impossible, and can be worthwhile when deployed, certainly, but it's always because of a lot of work done by the language designers and implementations, it's never just "hey let's use generics, ok, that one sentence finishes the design I guess let's go implement them in a could of hours". [1]: Just about the edge of the "tricky" I'd advise: https://github.com/thejerf/mtmap https://github.com/thejerf/mtmap

tapirl 2y ago
> In particular, people tend to read it as the "sum type" operator, which it is not. I kind of wish the syntax has used & instead of |, what it is doing is closer to an "and" then an "or". I don't understand here. In my understanding, the pipe operator is indeed closer to "or" and "sum type" operator. Interpreting it as "and" is weird to me.
- Groxx 2y ago
  I think they're reading it as "a bitwise-and of the functionality of the types passed", which is accurate (since you're getting the lowest common denominator of all |'d types). I'm... not sure which way I lean tbh, now that I've seen that idea. Both have merit, it's more of a problem for educational material than anything. If you present it as "these types", | makes sense. If you instead use "these behaviors", & makes sense. | is slightly easier to type for me though, and & has more meanings already (address-of), so maybe I'd still favor |.
  - tapirl 2y ago
    Okay, it is some reasonable if the operator is viewed as a behavior operator. But it is not, it is a type set operator.
    - jerf 2y ago
      And the real point I'm making here is that "the type set operator" is not "a sum type". A sum type with, say, three branches is either the first, or the second, or the third, and to do anything with any of them, you have to deconstruct it, at which point you have full access to the deconstructed branch you are in. The | operator in a Go generic is more a declaration of "I want to operate on all of these at once", so, you can put multiple numeric types into it because you can do a + or a - on any of them, but while the syntax permits you to put three struct types into it, and it'll compile, it does not produce a "sum type". Instead you get "I can operate on this value with the intersection of all the operations they can do", which is more or less "nothing". ("Methods" aren't "operations"; methods you can already declare in interfaces.) Some people particularly fool themselves because you can still take that type, cast it into an "any", and then type switch on it, but it turns out you can always do that, the | operator isn't helping you in any particular way, and if you want to have a closed set of types, a closed interface is a much better way to do it, on many levels. It also doesn't currently do anything else people may want it to do, like, accept three structs that each have a field "A" of type "int" and allow the generic to operate on at least that field because they all share it. There's a proposal I've seen to enable that, as the current syntax would at least support that, but I don't know what its status is.
BlackFly 2y ago
It is precisely a sum type, no? https://go.dev/play/p/xlRegSDYytg https://go.dev/play/p/xlRegSDYytg As defined, the set of the type Ordered is exactly the sum of all elements of int, uint and string. The intersection of int and string would be empty. The or symbol makes sense because an element of Ordered is either a uint or an int or a string. An element of Ordered is not a uint and an int and a string. It feels to me that static typed languages tend to give you intersection bounds and not union bounds. Rust has intersections, java has intersections. Meanwhile, if you have duck typing then you end up with a bunch of union types (see python -> mypy, javascript -> typescript). There are of course the general union types (not generic bounds) in C/C++/rust which kind of behaves in a similar fashion.
- jerf 2y ago
  No, you have created "a type that can be one of int, uint, or string, or anything that backs directly to them". They all can >, and since that's the only thing you used in Max, everything works fine. You don't have a sum type; you have "a type that is either an int, a uint, a string, or something that backs to them", specifically. It doesn't come in as any sort of sum type, it is specifically one of those types directly. For one thing, as you've specified it, you don't even have a closed set of types. Off in another package I can declare a "type MyInt int" and use your Max on it, so if you tried to type switch in your Max function, you would not know about my type, and it is arguably the defining characteristic of a sum type that you can know all the branches it has. You can fix that by knocking off the tilde, but then you still have the problem that it is not legal to use "switch val := a.(type)", which is basically the level of deconstruction of a type that Go permits, because when the Max function is running, it is not running on a value of type "Ordered"; it literally has a value of the type you passed in. That's the whole point of generics, to have values of the concrete type that was passed in, and not a sort of "sum type". https://go.dev/play/p/MGhRjwvpdTh https://go.dev/play/p/MGhRjwvpdTh Note you don't get "Ordered". You get the specific types. That's not any sort of "generic weirdness", that's the real situation. That's why you can only use the intersection of operations they all support. If you want a sum type in Go, use closed interfaces: https://github.com/BurntSushi/go-sumtype https://github.com/BurntSushi/go-sumtype If you're willing to accept what you've written as a sum type, you should be even more willing to accept this method, which actually produces a reasonable approximation of one.

by jerf 2y ago

tapirl 2y ago

> In particular, people tend to read it as the "sum type" operator, which it is not. I kind of wish the syntax has used & instead of |, what it is doing is closer to an "and" then an "or". I don't understand here. In my understanding, the pipe operator is indeed closer to "or" and "sum type" operator. Interpreting it as "and" is weird to me.

Groxx 2y ago
I think they're reading it as "a bitwise-and of the functionality of the types passed", which is accurate (since you're getting the lowest common denominator of all |'d types). I'm... not sure which way I lean tbh, now that I've seen that idea. Both have merit, it's more of a problem for educational material than anything. If you present it as "these types", | makes sense. If you instead use "these behaviors", & makes sense. | is slightly easier to type for me though, and & has more meanings already (address-of), so maybe I'd still favor |.
- tapirl 2y ago
  Okay, it is some reasonable if the operator is viewed as a behavior operator. But it is not, it is a type set operator.
  - jerf 2y ago
    And the real point I'm making here is that "the type set operator" is not "a sum type". A sum type with, say, three branches is either the first, or the second, or the third, and to do anything with any of them, you have to deconstruct it, at which point you have full access to the deconstructed branch you are in. The | operator in a Go generic is more a declaration of "I want to operate on all of these at once", so, you can put multiple numeric types into it because you can do a + or a - on any of them, but while the syntax permits you to put three struct types into it, and it'll compile, it does not produce a "sum type". Instead you get "I can operate on this value with the intersection of all the operations they can do", which is more or less "nothing". ("Methods" aren't "operations"; methods you can already declare in interfaces.) Some people particularly fool themselves because you can still take that type, cast it into an "any", and then type switch on it, but it turns out you can always do that, the | operator isn't helping you in any particular way, and if you want to have a closed set of types, a closed interface is a much better way to do it, on many levels. It also doesn't currently do anything else people may want it to do, like, accept three structs that each have a field "A" of type "int" and allow the generic to operate on at least that field because they all share it. There's a proposal I've seen to enable that, as the current syntax would at least support that, but I don't know what its status is.

BlackFly 2y ago

It is precisely a sum type, no? https://go.dev/play/p/xlRegSDYytg https://go.dev/play/p/xlRegSDYytg As defined, the set of the type Ordered is exactly the sum of all elements of int, uint and string. The intersection of int and string would be empty. The or symbol makes sense because an element of Ordered is either a uint or an int or a string. An element of Ordered is not a uint and an int and a string. It feels to me that static typed languages tend to give you intersection bounds and not union bounds. Rust has intersections, java has intersections. Meanwhile, if you have duck typing then you end up with a bunch of union types (see python -> mypy, javascript -> typescript). There are of course the general union types (not generic bounds) in C/C++/rust which kind of behaves in a similar fashion.

jerf 2y ago
No, you have created "a type that can be one of int, uint, or string, or anything that backs directly to them". They all can >, and since that's the only thing you used in Max, everything works fine. You don't have a sum type; you have "a type that is either an int, a uint, a string, or something that backs to them", specifically. It doesn't come in as any sort of sum type, it is specifically one of those types directly. For one thing, as you've specified it, you don't even have a closed set of types. Off in another package I can declare a "type MyInt int" and use your Max on it, so if you tried to type switch in your Max function, you would not know about my type, and it is arguably the defining characteristic of a sum type that you can know all the branches it has. You can fix that by knocking off the tilde, but then you still have the problem that it is not legal to use "switch val := a.(type)", which is basically the level of deconstruction of a type that Go permits, because when the Max function is running, it is not running on a value of type "Ordered"; it literally has a value of the type you passed in. That's the whole point of generics, to have values of the concrete type that was passed in, and not a sort of "sum type". https://go.dev/play/p/MGhRjwvpdTh https://go.dev/play/p/MGhRjwvpdTh Note you don't get "Ordered". You get the specific types. That's not any sort of "generic weirdness", that's the real situation. That's why you can only use the intersection of operations they all support. If you want a sum type in Go, use closed interfaces: https://github.com/BurntSushi/go-sumtype https://github.com/BurntSushi/go-sumtype If you're willing to accept what you've written as a sum type, you should be even more willing to accept this method, which actually produces a reasonable approximation of one.