8 ms·

And christians all over the world sit on their asses and not saying anything against arresting people for that bullshit. I guess a sizable portion of these are

And christians all over the world sit on their asses and not saying anything against arresting people for that bullshit. I guess a sizable portion of these are actually happy about the incident. I just never see them standing up and saying: I am against this as a christian, this is not what the Christ died for. Thus I consider all christians to have their small part in being morally responsible for that crap around the world (see also Pussy Riot scandal in Russia where I am from)

rorrr 14y ago
Of course they are quiet. Religious moderates always quietly support the extrimists.
paulgb 14y ago
I've wondered about this before, and I think that sharing beliefs with someone who commits evil results in moral ressponsibility only to the extent that a. your beliefs are wrong, and b. that your beliefs influence or enable their behaviour. A. is pretty obvious; if I believe that the sky is blue and someone who also believes the sky is blue commits murder, I have no responsibility for merely sharing a true belief. B. I think is sometimes underestimated. Even if you're not hurting anyone yourself, you could be legitimizing a belief that harms others. I think there is moral responsibility in this case, although I'm not sure I could argue it convincingly. A good example is how Catholics legitimize witholding contraception in Africa, even if they're not the ones witholding the contraception themselves. The issue in practice is A. If you believe that something is true, you don't feel the need to take responsablity for the actions of others who believe it. So nobody believes that they are morally responsable for their beliefs, tautologically.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  But if you believe something is true, you have to stand up when other people with similar beliefs do horrible things. If you don't, I feel free to assume you do quietly support doing horrible things.
  - ajuc 14y ago
    I think you should stand up, whenever someone do sth horrible, no matter what this person believes. If I see man beating up another, I should help the victim, no matter if the attacker is christian, muslim or atheist. And I don't think just because you share some beliefs with him, you bear more responsibility for his deeds. I don't understand, why should all atheists be responsible, if one of them does sth wrong. I also don't think that moral responsibility of all (people beliving in X) is to search news every day to know where other (people believing in X) did sth horrible, to be able to stand up againist that. If you don't do this with respect to your own beliefs, I think you shouldn't judge others for not doing it.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      Atheism is very different. You don't see atheists having fancy churches. You don't see athists demanding hurting over people over their "religious feelings".
      - ajuc 14y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_th...
        guard-of-terra 14y ago
        This is true if you consider Marxism-Leninism a religion. Which many do; in former Yugoslavia you can find obituaries posted on the walls, and they're marked either by black cross, or by green crescent, or by red star: meaning that communist beliefs are on the same page with islam and christianity. But then again, most atheists would stand up and announce they don't like communism (at least in its violent early-soviet form) at all, and they're against persecution of christians under such regimes. I do. Early soviet regime sucked a big time. Not a good example for anyone to follow. Still, I don't think there's terribly many communists who claim their religious (or whatever other) feelings were hurt by other people.
gscott 14y ago
Did you know about this incident before it was posted here? Most people live their daily lives, go to work, come home, have no idea what is happening in India. Certainly there is plenty of Christian charity in India but it is unlikely even they know about this incident. Here is one for example: http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Articles/196169/Network_Norwich_and_Norfolk/Resources/Training/Training_Archive/Norfolk_Christian_charity_offers_India_work.aspx http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Articles/196169/Network_Norw... they have their mission, it has nothing to do with policing Christianity. A leaky drain, going through walls, and ending up through a nail hole in a statue could be a miracle to someone else. I can't tell someone else it's not even though it doesn't appear to me to be a miracle but just happenstance. There is no Christianity police and you wouldn't want any because you need a certain number of Christians to vote for gay rights.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  I just never see people sacrificing their mental comfort and beliefs to save human beings. I do see people sacrificing human beings to save their mental comfort and beliefs. A lot. That mismatch is a problem for me. So I want everybody have no mental comfort to preserve and no beliefs.
  - gscott 14y ago
    There are tens of thousands upon thousands of people out there right now sacrificing an easy life to save others. You don't see it on the news because "child doesn't starve" is not a news story. People who do great things are often not promoting themselves because they do these things not for a slap on the back or a congratulations but to improve lives. I like this guy, usually people do things as groups but he is able to on his own find where he can do the most, moves there until it is done, and moves to the next place. http://www.wamda.com/coe/video/235835 http://www.wamda.com/coe/video/235835
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      Sacrificing your life is easy and noble. Sacrificing your beliefs is much harder and less common.
aik 14y ago
A small child in some remote corner of Africa is being hunted and killed for reasons unknown. I consider you (and all of humanity) being morally responsible for allowing that to take place. (<- example to make a point) Point 1: We all choose our own battles. Side-point 1: Making totally unfounded accusations isn't helpful unless you're trying to spread additional misinformation. (E.g. "I guess a sizable portion of these are actually happy about the incident.") Side-point 2: I do agree that there is excessive complacency.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  I'm not sure about that. Neither me nor my ancestors crossed paths with this child or his/her ancestors which could result in this child suffering. If they did, then yes, I am.
  - aik 14y ago
    The same thing can be said for your argument, can't it? 99.999+% of Christians have never crossed paths or had any interaction what-so-ever with this Indian town or church.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      But they share the faith don't they? And then the Church proceeds to say: "You see, there are gazillions of christians in the world! Respect my authoritah!" And bashes whoever they want over the head with a stick.
      - aik 14y ago
        Share the faith? I think a better question is if they share the same beliefs. Which the answer to that question is no, there are a million denominations with different beliefs, many of which would completely disagree with the actions of this particular organization. That's what makes it so hard -- if a Christian felt responsible for all supposedly-Christian actions taken by other Christians, that Christian would spend every millisecond of their life and a thousand more responding in disagreement to the actions of the other Christians.

rorrr 14y ago

Of course they are quiet. Religious moderates always quietly support the extrimists.

paulgb 14y ago

I've wondered about this before, and I think that sharing beliefs with someone who commits evil results in moral ressponsibility only to the extent that a. your beliefs are wrong, and b. that your beliefs influence or enable their behaviour. A. is pretty obvious; if I believe that the sky is blue and someone who also believes the sky is blue commits murder, I have no responsibility for merely sharing a true belief. B. I think is sometimes underestimated. Even if you're not hurting anyone yourself, you could be legitimizing a belief that harms others. I think there is moral responsibility in this case, although I'm not sure I could argue it convincingly. A good example is how Catholics legitimize witholding contraception in Africa, even if they're not the ones witholding the contraception themselves. The issue in practice is A. If you believe that something is true, you don't feel the need to take responsablity for the actions of others who believe it. So nobody believes that they are morally responsable for their beliefs, tautologically.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
But if you believe something is true, you have to stand up when other people with similar beliefs do horrible things. If you don't, I feel free to assume you do quietly support doing horrible things.
- ajuc 14y ago
  I think you should stand up, whenever someone do sth horrible, no matter what this person believes. If I see man beating up another, I should help the victim, no matter if the attacker is christian, muslim or atheist. And I don't think just because you share some beliefs with him, you bear more responsibility for his deeds. I don't understand, why should all atheists be responsible, if one of them does sth wrong. I also don't think that moral responsibility of all (people beliving in X) is to search news every day to know where other (people believing in X) did sth horrible, to be able to stand up againist that. If you don't do this with respect to your own beliefs, I think you shouldn't judge others for not doing it.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    Atheism is very different. You don't see atheists having fancy churches. You don't see athists demanding hurting over people over their "religious feelings".
    - ajuc 14y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_th...
      - guard-of-terra 14y ago
        This is true if you consider Marxism-Leninism a religion. Which many do; in former Yugoslavia you can find obituaries posted on the walls, and they're marked either by black cross, or by green crescent, or by red star: meaning that communist beliefs are on the same page with islam and christianity. But then again, most atheists would stand up and announce they don't like communism (at least in its violent early-soviet form) at all, and they're against persecution of christians under such regimes. I do. Early soviet regime sucked a big time. Not a good example for anyone to follow. Still, I don't think there's terribly many communists who claim their religious (or whatever other) feelings were hurt by other people.

gscott 14y ago

Did you know about this incident before it was posted here? Most people live their daily lives, go to work, come home, have no idea what is happening in India. Certainly there is plenty of Christian charity in India but it is unlikely even they know about this incident. Here is one for example: http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Articles/196169/Network_Norwich_and_Norfolk/Resources/Training/Training_Archive/Norfolk_Christian_charity_offers_India_work.aspx http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Articles/196169/Network_Norw... they have their mission, it has nothing to do with policing Christianity. A leaky drain, going through walls, and ending up through a nail hole in a statue could be a miracle to someone else. I can't tell someone else it's not even though it doesn't appear to me to be a miracle but just happenstance. There is no Christianity police and you wouldn't want any because you need a certain number of Christians to vote for gay rights.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
I just never see people sacrificing their mental comfort and beliefs to save human beings. I do see people sacrificing human beings to save their mental comfort and beliefs. A lot. That mismatch is a problem for me. So I want everybody have no mental comfort to preserve and no beliefs.
- gscott 14y ago
  There are tens of thousands upon thousands of people out there right now sacrificing an easy life to save others. You don't see it on the news because "child doesn't starve" is not a news story. People who do great things are often not promoting themselves because they do these things not for a slap on the back or a congratulations but to improve lives. I like this guy, usually people do things as groups but he is able to on his own find where he can do the most, moves there until it is done, and moves to the next place. http://www.wamda.com/coe/video/235835 http://www.wamda.com/coe/video/235835
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    Sacrificing your life is easy and noble. Sacrificing your beliefs is much harder and less common.

aik 14y ago

A small child in some remote corner of Africa is being hunted and killed for reasons unknown. I consider you (and all of humanity) being morally responsible for allowing that to take place. (<- example to make a point) Point 1: We all choose our own battles. Side-point 1: Making totally unfounded accusations isn't helpful unless you're trying to spread additional misinformation. (E.g. "I guess a sizable portion of these are actually happy about the incident.") Side-point 2: I do agree that there is excessive complacency.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
I'm not sure about that. Neither me nor my ancestors crossed paths with this child or his/her ancestors which could result in this child suffering. If they did, then yes, I am.
- aik 14y ago
  The same thing can be said for your argument, can't it? 99.999+% of Christians have never crossed paths or had any interaction what-so-ever with this Indian town or church.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    But they share the faith don't they? And then the Church proceeds to say: "You see, there are gazillions of christians in the world! Respect my authoritah!" And bashes whoever they want over the head with a stick.
    - aik 14y ago
      Share the faith? I think a better question is if they share the same beliefs. Which the answer to that question is no, there are a million denominations with different beliefs, many of which would completely disagree with the actions of this particular organization. That's what makes it so hard -- if a Christian felt responsible for all supposedly-Christian actions taken by other Christians, that Christian would spend every millisecond of their life and a thousand more responding in disagreement to the actions of the other Christians.