4 ms·

I think that there's a greater societal problem that's causing ripples everywhere, including issues that came up in the recent election. Women are realizing th

I think that there's a greater societal problem that's causing ripples everywhere, including issues that came up in the recent election. Women are realizing that stay-at-home wife/motherhood is a really bad job. 24/7, room and board only, and are much like the company jobs of yore where if you leave or the company goes under, you may find yourself with nothing or worse, a pile of debt. So what's happening for the first time generationally is that women don't really _need_ men. They don't need the money, they don't need the children, they don't want the loss of independence. Men, particularly young men, are having trouble adjusting to this. They've been raised to believe that having a wife is part of the natural order of things, that being a breadwinner is part of the natural order of things. The whole 'trad wife' meme fed into this dream of coming home to a hot meal, a adoring wife, and obedient children. That's just not something that is going to happen anymore and only men are having a problem with it. I don't have any idea what to do about it. Sometimes the response to greater women's liberation is for men to take advantage of their greater strength and size and force women back into the homes. I'm hoping that's not inevitable.

etrautmann 2y ago
I've heard this over and over but don't see it anywhere around me (NYC, likely overeducated, doing fine but not wealthy). I know a lot of couples that have a kid but face major financial constraints. Up and down the socioeconomic spectrum, it's expensive as hell to have a family, house and educate them, and that's a major part of the calculus for even moderately well-off families.
- nineplay 2y ago
  You don't see declining fertility rates?
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    People young enough to be having kids often don't have a sense of what was normal a few years ago, much less decades ago.
epicureanideal 2y ago
> if you leave or the company goes under, you may find yourself with nothing or worse Untrue. Alimony, child support. > Men, particularly young men, are having trouble adjusting to this. I see just as much anecdotal evidence that men are often (who knows what the percent breakdown is) the ones no longer seeking relationships, and articles authored by women lamenting the availability of highly desirable male partners. > 24/7, room and board only This seems like an overly negative view. All the work isn’t done by one partner, income is spent by both, the female partner often spends a higher percent of the income statistically (not implying anything by this, they may just be the one shopping for groceries), they share in what the income buys and the lifestyle of the couple, they also keep half of the asset appreciation, etc.
- nineplay 2y ago
  > Untrue. Alimony, child support Not guaranteed in any way. Depends very much on courts, lawyers, and the ability of judgements to be enforced. Who would take that over a job with a 401k that moves with you? > I see just as much anecdotal evidence that men are often (who knows what the percent breakdown is) the ones no longer seeking relationships, and articles lamenting the availability of highly desirable male partners See the 'incel' movement. See the Joe Rogan listeners. See the responses to any post about dating sites and the fury that women get more matches than men. Young men are angry.
  - anon291 2y ago
    While alimony is not guaranteed, Elizabeth Warren shows in her book 'The Dual Income Trap' that you can be pretty much assured the government will get all that is possible from the husband. This is more true today than ever. But you're not totally wrong. Part of the problem is that we disincentivize staying home. For example, you don't get to contribute to a 401k if you don't work but are at home with kids. You also don't get to qualify for social security. In my opinion, if a woman or man stays home (but let's be honest... it's mostly women), then she should qualify for significant tax breaks on retirement accounts (if not a funded government account) and also the quarters she spends caring for kids should count for social security at the working spouse's wage or a government-mandated minimum. > See the responses to any post about dating sites and the fury that women get more matches than men. This is hardly a new thing. Literally the entire history of humankind is explained by men being highly desirous of basically any women and women desiring only a certain subset of men. 'Incel's have a long history.
anon291 2y ago
> The whole 'trad wife' meme fed into this dream of coming home to a hot meal, a adoring wife, and obedient children. That's just not something that is going to happen anymore and only men are having a problem with it. As opposed to young women, who expect men to earn more than them, adore them, and to do all that while caring for kids? Part of the problem here is that young men's desires are constantly castigated as bad. In particular, coming home to an adoring spouse is something both sexes ought to want, and it should never be castigated as bad for a young man to want a wife who adores him. Well, either way it doesn't really matter. Yes young men today will be sad, but ultimately, this is a self-correcting problem. The women that do this are not going to be represented in the next generation. Their choice of course. It's a free country.
- nineplay 2y ago
  > As opposed to young women, who expect men to earn more than them, adore them, and to do all that while caring for kids Not anymore, that's my point. Women's dreams are changing now that they can make real money. Men's dreams are not catching up. > Yes young men today will be sad, but ultimately, this is a self-correcting problem Self correcting in many ways but it is often 'corrected' by oppression and violence. Women did not forbid themselves from going outside or showing their faces.
  - anon291 2y ago
    > Not anymore, that's my point. Women's dreams are changing now that they can make real money. Men's dreams are not catching up. What should men dream? I honestly think the truth of the matter is that women's dreams change the moment they have a baby. Literally every women I know suddenly has a change of heart on how their future ought to unfold the moment the baby is born. Part of the problem here is that couples are not even crossing that Rubicon, so to speak . I count myself as a man who probably dreamed what you think men ought to have. My wife and I married young, yes, but we both envisioned working full time. Then we had the baby... and suddenly your wife is obsessed with this little person in a way you never thought possible. My wife in particular never counted herself as a 'kid' person, but it's different when its your own, especially for women. Suddenly, it seemed like the only sane option was the traditional one. But I scorned those who told me that before that happened to us. I think we should just be honest about the effect of hormones on women's desires. It would be kinder to men and women to do that.
disambiguation 2y ago
>Women are realizing that stay-at-home wife/motherhood is a really bad job. I've heard a lot of the opposite, women realizing that work sucks and that being stay at home is a realistic out for them. >you may find yourself with nothing or worse, a pile of debt. I also see women generally winning when it comes to divorce. I have close acquaintances that married rich and divorced rich. >That's just not something that is going to happen anymore and only men are having a problem with it. I see women with "buyers remorse" a lot. They lived their independent life and now realize they want kids after all but are getting too old to start a family.

etrautmann 2y ago

I've heard this over and over but don't see it anywhere around me (NYC, likely overeducated, doing fine but not wealthy). I know a lot of couples that have a kid but face major financial constraints. Up and down the socioeconomic spectrum, it's expensive as hell to have a family, house and educate them, and that's a major part of the calculus for even moderately well-off families.

nineplay 2y ago
You don't see declining fertility rates?
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  People young enough to be having kids often don't have a sense of what was normal a few years ago, much less decades ago.

epicureanideal 2y ago

> if you leave or the company goes under, you may find yourself with nothing or worse Untrue. Alimony, child support. > Men, particularly young men, are having trouble adjusting to this. I see just as much anecdotal evidence that men are often (who knows what the percent breakdown is) the ones no longer seeking relationships, and articles authored by women lamenting the availability of highly desirable male partners. > 24/7, room and board only This seems like an overly negative view. All the work isn’t done by one partner, income is spent by both, the female partner often spends a higher percent of the income statistically (not implying anything by this, they may just be the one shopping for groceries), they share in what the income buys and the lifestyle of the couple, they also keep half of the asset appreciation, etc.

nineplay 2y ago
> Untrue. Alimony, child support Not guaranteed in any way. Depends very much on courts, lawyers, and the ability of judgements to be enforced. Who would take that over a job with a 401k that moves with you? > I see just as much anecdotal evidence that men are often (who knows what the percent breakdown is) the ones no longer seeking relationships, and articles lamenting the availability of highly desirable male partners See the 'incel' movement. See the Joe Rogan listeners. See the responses to any post about dating sites and the fury that women get more matches than men. Young men are angry.
- anon291 2y ago
  While alimony is not guaranteed, Elizabeth Warren shows in her book 'The Dual Income Trap' that you can be pretty much assured the government will get all that is possible from the husband. This is more true today than ever. But you're not totally wrong. Part of the problem is that we disincentivize staying home. For example, you don't get to contribute to a 401k if you don't work but are at home with kids. You also don't get to qualify for social security. In my opinion, if a woman or man stays home (but let's be honest... it's mostly women), then she should qualify for significant tax breaks on retirement accounts (if not a funded government account) and also the quarters she spends caring for kids should count for social security at the working spouse's wage or a government-mandated minimum. > See the responses to any post about dating sites and the fury that women get more matches than men. This is hardly a new thing. Literally the entire history of humankind is explained by men being highly desirous of basically any women and women desiring only a certain subset of men. 'Incel's have a long history.

anon291 2y ago

> The whole 'trad wife' meme fed into this dream of coming home to a hot meal, a adoring wife, and obedient children. That's just not something that is going to happen anymore and only men are having a problem with it. As opposed to young women, who expect men to earn more than them, adore them, and to do all that while caring for kids? Part of the problem here is that young men's desires are constantly castigated as bad. In particular, coming home to an adoring spouse is something both sexes ought to want, and it should never be castigated as bad for a young man to want a wife who adores him. Well, either way it doesn't really matter. Yes young men today will be sad, but ultimately, this is a self-correcting problem. The women that do this are not going to be represented in the next generation. Their choice of course. It's a free country.

nineplay 2y ago
> As opposed to young women, who expect men to earn more than them, adore them, and to do all that while caring for kids Not anymore, that's my point. Women's dreams are changing now that they can make real money. Men's dreams are not catching up. > Yes young men today will be sad, but ultimately, this is a self-correcting problem Self correcting in many ways but it is often 'corrected' by oppression and violence. Women did not forbid themselves from going outside or showing their faces.
- anon291 2y ago
  > Not anymore, that's my point. Women's dreams are changing now that they can make real money. Men's dreams are not catching up. What should men dream? I honestly think the truth of the matter is that women's dreams change the moment they have a baby. Literally every women I know suddenly has a change of heart on how their future ought to unfold the moment the baby is born. Part of the problem here is that couples are not even crossing that Rubicon, so to speak . I count myself as a man who probably dreamed what you think men ought to have. My wife and I married young, yes, but we both envisioned working full time. Then we had the baby... and suddenly your wife is obsessed with this little person in a way you never thought possible. My wife in particular never counted herself as a 'kid' person, but it's different when its your own, especially for women. Suddenly, it seemed like the only sane option was the traditional one. But I scorned those who told me that before that happened to us. I think we should just be honest about the effect of hormones on women's desires. It would be kinder to men and women to do that.

disambiguation 2y ago

>Women are realizing that stay-at-home wife/motherhood is a really bad job. I've heard a lot of the opposite, women realizing that work sucks and that being stay at home is a realistic out for them. >you may find yourself with nothing or worse, a pile of debt. I also see women generally winning when it comes to divorce. I have close acquaintances that married rich and divorced rich. >That's just not something that is going to happen anymore and only men are having a problem with it. I see women with "buyers remorse" a lot. They lived their independent life and now realize they want kids after all but are getting too old to start a family.