5 ms·

> Why do people also focus on the fringe science of HFCS and seed oils? I think both are easy to see examples of ingredients that seem out of place from what o

by koolba 2y ago

> Why do people also focus on the fringe science of HFCS and seed oils? I think both are easy to see examples of ingredients that seem out of place from what our bodies have evolved to eat for millenia. When you read about how things like canola oil (i.e., rapeseed oil) are so high in erucic acid that they're toxic and must be extracted with hexane to make them edible, it's reasonable to question whether we should be eating them at all. Versus something like olive oil (literally just squeezed olives) or butter (milk from cow).

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> both are easy to see examples of ingredients that seem out of place from what our bodies have evolved to eat for millenia You might as well add everything farmed, raised or processed to that list. Appeals to nature don't work in nutrition [1]. We've been starving and malnourished since the Neolithic [2]. And almost everything in our food supplies we consider "natural" is engineered. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9460423/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9460423/
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think a more effective appeal to nature would be that need to return to a near starvation diet.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > a more effective appeal to nature would be that need to return to a near starvation diet Also increases CVD and mortality [1]. And causes your descendants to be fat [2]. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792411/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792411/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36507560/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36507560/
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I was expecting you to link the transgenerational study from polish famines during world war II, so thanks for some references I haven't seen before. That said, you have to admit that they are a hell of a lot of variables at play when you're talking about populations that self-reported food insecurity or underwent literal famine. That said, if you are worried about the next generation, it'd be interesting to compare the magnitude of transgenerational effect from simply being raised in a household with obese parents in the usa. I imagine it's much larger but I'm not on a pc to look it up right now. Last, if I were to lazily steel Man my appeal to nature, I doubt our Neolithic ancestors yo-yo'd back and forth between skinny and obese generations due to calorie restrictions.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      As a follow up on the descendant study from China, your link shows that children with a mother that experienced childhood famine have an average BMI that is higher by ~1. Children with fathers who experienced childhood famine actually have a lower BMI. This study doesn't control for the obvious cultural and behavioral implications of a parent living through the famines, although epigenetic connections have been proposed elsewhere [0] Here [1] is another study from China That shows that simply having an obese parent is the single biggest factor in a developing childhood obesity, and nearly doubles the obesity risk. I didnt bother digging up a study, but this link[2] says that in the USA, a child with 1 obese parent has a 50% chance of being obese (absolute, not increased hazard ratio!) If both parents are obese, a child has an 80% chance of being obese! This makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I would expect the modeled behavior, status, household food, and parenting to have a huge impact on children. This naturally overshadows the interesting but tiny impact of epigenetic transmission. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8648067/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8648067/ https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/s12199-021-00973-x.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/s12199-021-009... https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/obesity#:~:text=A%20child%20with%20one%20obese,80%20percent%20chance%20of%20obesity https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/obesity#:~:t....
infecto 2y ago
Does the hexane being used have anything to do with erucic acid? We have bred the plant to be low in erucic acid already. Hexane is used in the processing as a way to maximize extraction. Maybe I am wrong. Regardless that is a tail risk when thinking about the general population.

by koolba 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> both are easy to see examples of ingredients that seem out of place from what our bodies have evolved to eat for millenia You might as well add everything farmed, raised or processed to that list. Appeals to nature don't work in nutrition [1]. We've been starving and malnourished since the Neolithic [2]. And almost everything in our food supplies we consider "natural" is engineered. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9460423/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9460423/

s1artibartfast 2y ago
I think a more effective appeal to nature would be that need to return to a near starvation diet.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > a more effective appeal to nature would be that need to return to a near starvation diet Also increases CVD and mortality [1]. And causes your descendants to be fat [2]. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792411/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792411/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36507560/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36507560/
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I was expecting you to link the transgenerational study from polish famines during world war II, so thanks for some references I haven't seen before. That said, you have to admit that they are a hell of a lot of variables at play when you're talking about populations that self-reported food insecurity or underwent literal famine. That said, if you are worried about the next generation, it'd be interesting to compare the magnitude of transgenerational effect from simply being raised in a household with obese parents in the usa. I imagine it's much larger but I'm not on a pc to look it up right now. Last, if I were to lazily steel Man my appeal to nature, I doubt our Neolithic ancestors yo-yo'd back and forth between skinny and obese generations due to calorie restrictions.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    As a follow up on the descendant study from China, your link shows that children with a mother that experienced childhood famine have an average BMI that is higher by ~1. Children with fathers who experienced childhood famine actually have a lower BMI. This study doesn't control for the obvious cultural and behavioral implications of a parent living through the famines, although epigenetic connections have been proposed elsewhere [0] Here [1] is another study from China That shows that simply having an obese parent is the single biggest factor in a developing childhood obesity, and nearly doubles the obesity risk. I didnt bother digging up a study, but this link[2] says that in the USA, a child with 1 obese parent has a 50% chance of being obese (absolute, not increased hazard ratio!) If both parents are obese, a child has an 80% chance of being obese! This makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I would expect the modeled behavior, status, household food, and parenting to have a huge impact on children. This naturally overshadows the interesting but tiny impact of epigenetic transmission. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8648067/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8648067/ https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/s12199-021-00973-x.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/s12199-021-009... https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/obesity#:~:text=A%20child%20with%20one%20obese,80%20percent%20chance%20of%20obesity https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/obesity#:~:t....

infecto 2y ago

Does the hexane being used have anything to do with erucic acid? We have bred the plant to be low in erucic acid already. Hexane is used in the processing as a way to maximize extraction. Maybe I am wrong. Regardless that is a tail risk when thinking about the general population.