4 ms·

Great comment. You have hit the nail on the head. One has to immerse oneself into the ocean of sweat, dirt and garbage to see the real india and what makes it

by baseh 14y ago

Great comment. You have hit the nail on the head. One has to immerse oneself into the ocean of sweat, dirt and garbage to see the real india and what makes it tick. It is like swimming in an ocean of raw-sewage with a 1000 foot, 1000-headed serpent. >> The most unfortunate in India are amongst the most fatalistic - they give up trying. : This is again so true. Experienced first-hand with some of my relatives. You might be initially surprised at their mindset and the self-reasoning, but then you will realize its part of their coming to terms with life. If you consider the rain-forests of Amazon as an evolving experiment by nature, I consider the human-forests of India as an evolving experiment by nature as well.

darien 14y ago
It has been explained to me that it is common for many indians to justify another person’s plight by believing that a condition of suffering is that person’s ‘karmic destiny.’ Therefore it would be ‘bad karma’ to help such a person.
- photon137 14y ago
  Well, that perception, if it has been presented to you, is false. In fact, in India, whenever someone is discouraged to help someone out, the most popular argument is "Why bother? It's not your problem!" or "It'll be more trouble than it's worth" - just like anywhere else in the world.
  - JonnieCache 14y ago
    Surely the belief in karma/reincarnation and the caste system are mutually reinforcing on some level though? EDIT: But the part about it being "bad karma" to help some people and not others, that definitely sounds like somebody has misunderstood somewhere.
    - photon137 14y ago
      Well, the caste system exists and the inequalities exist - but they exist purely due to economic and political incentives. Belief in karma and reincarnation has got nothing to do with it. And even the victims of this system know this.
      - memset 14y ago
        I want to nitpick slightly, if I may, albeit the point is not related to the general discussion of poverty in India. There is also some modern, relevant benefits to identifying someone's caste: it is an indicator that someone comes from a similar cultural or religious upbringing. That you speak similar dialects of Hindi. This is important when, say, marrying. This says nothing of the caste system as institutional discrimination, but it's worth mentioning that caste is not "purely" an economic/political bit of culture.
        geekam 14y ago
        Yes, caste system is embedded in the culture. It is not purely economic/political in nature. It is used by politicians because it is there, socially. This form is racism exists so deep in India. You can witness this: * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit * India Untouched - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1552060/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1552060/ * India's broken people - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxJr0UlcNTA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxJr0UlcNTA There is whole sect in India which is segregated, tortured everyday for being born as a lower caste and it does not even end with their death. They have to clean others' feces by their hands (yes even today) and this is considered a norm. Rich, higher caste still instill this in their own kids to be wary of the "dirty people". Kids born into Dalit families are reminded of this by not letting them eat with other kids, not letting them wear same clothes and being asked for their caste again and again. This system is kept alive. This all still exists and is in abundance. Point to note is that this is not just in rural, uneducated parts of India. Honestly, the concept comes from Hinduism. As a major religion for centuries, it has a code-of-conduct by Manu to divide the society into 4 major parts. But now it is a part of every sect in practice. It exists and it is social.
  - darien 14y ago
    Justifying someone's misery as 'bad karma' was told to me by Eileen Weintraub, the founder of http://www.helpanimalsindia.org http://www.helpanimalsindia.org. She tries to teach local indian communities how to organize local community animal shelters... which helps with the cut down as animal dung littering the streets, among other things.
  - statictype 14y ago
    Anecdotally, about ten years ago, when walking down a street once, a poor girl started following me around. I reached into my pocket and gave her a handful of whatever loose change I had lying around in there. She continued to badger me for the next 10min, even while I tried crossing the street multiple times to get her off my trail. I once got stopped by a couple that gave me a story about being left away from home and no means to get back etc... I gave them Rs.50 and they kind of stared at me with bewilderment like "that's all you're giving me" (And keep in mind that I'm not a white guy standing out in the crowd - I look just like every other Indian on the street :) ) Small things like this make me slightly more reluctant to give money to people on the street. I prefer to donate via charities that I help out with instead.
- J3L2404 14y ago
  That is truly horrible.
- microarchitect 14y ago
  This is just false. I have been discouraged from helping people, mostly for the reason that it could turn out to be more trouble that it's worth, but I have never been given this reason. Also, your explanation makes no sense from a theological perspective. I've always been taught that helping people will earn you karma, so it's in your selfish interest to help those in need.
  - darien 14y ago
    I did not say that this was 'right', I merely said that it is one justification that is commonly used. Google "interfering with karma" and you will read various interpretations. http://www.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/working_with_karma.html http://www.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/wor... Here's an excerpt "If someone is born in an unfortunate situation, for instance into a very poor family, we explain it as due to past bad karma. We try to do more good karma this life in order to ensure we have a better rebirth. Is this chasing after happiness in life after life correct? Some people say, "Those people are poor because of their bad actions; therefore they are morally inferior. We shouldn't try to improve their situation because that would interfere with their karma. Rather, they should accept being in a lower class and try to create positive actions so they will be rich in future lives."
- marbleint 14y ago
  Say what you want, that is a disgusting justification for ignoring others suffering
- statictype 14y ago
  Besides the point others have made that many Indians don't think like this anymore, I just want to point out that it is possible to believe in karmic destiny and not use that as an excuse to not help people. The 'therefore' part of your observation doesn't necessarily follow from the premise and is more of an excuse used by people to justify behavior.
  - darien 14y ago
    I agree completely, my apologies if I made it sound like a mathematical postulate.

by baseh 14y ago

darien 14y ago

It has been explained to me that it is common for many indians to justify another person’s plight by believing that a condition of suffering is that person’s ‘karmic destiny.’ Therefore it would be ‘bad karma’ to help such a person.

photon137 14y ago
Well, that perception, if it has been presented to you, is false. In fact, in India, whenever someone is discouraged to help someone out, the most popular argument is "Why bother? It's not your problem!" or "It'll be more trouble than it's worth" - just like anywhere else in the world.
- JonnieCache 14y ago
  Surely the belief in karma/reincarnation and the caste system are mutually reinforcing on some level though? EDIT: But the part about it being "bad karma" to help some people and not others, that definitely sounds like somebody has misunderstood somewhere.
  - photon137 14y ago
    Well, the caste system exists and the inequalities exist - but they exist purely due to economic and political incentives. Belief in karma and reincarnation has got nothing to do with it. And even the victims of this system know this.
    - memset 14y ago
      I want to nitpick slightly, if I may, albeit the point is not related to the general discussion of poverty in India. There is also some modern, relevant benefits to identifying someone's caste: it is an indicator that someone comes from a similar cultural or religious upbringing. That you speak similar dialects of Hindi. This is important when, say, marrying. This says nothing of the caste system as institutional discrimination, but it's worth mentioning that caste is not "purely" an economic/political bit of culture.
      - geekam 14y ago
        Yes, caste system is embedded in the culture. It is not purely economic/political in nature. It is used by politicians because it is there, socially. This form is racism exists so deep in India. You can witness this: * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit * India Untouched - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1552060/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1552060/ * India's broken people - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxJr0UlcNTA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxJr0UlcNTA There is whole sect in India which is segregated, tortured everyday for being born as a lower caste and it does not even end with their death. They have to clean others' feces by their hands (yes even today) and this is considered a norm. Rich, higher caste still instill this in their own kids to be wary of the "dirty people". Kids born into Dalit families are reminded of this by not letting them eat with other kids, not letting them wear same clothes and being asked for their caste again and again. This system is kept alive. This all still exists and is in abundance. Point to note is that this is not just in rural, uneducated parts of India. Honestly, the concept comes from Hinduism. As a major religion for centuries, it has a code-of-conduct by Manu to divide the society into 4 major parts. But now it is a part of every sect in practice. It exists and it is social.
- darien 14y ago
  Justifying someone's misery as 'bad karma' was told to me by Eileen Weintraub, the founder of http://www.helpanimalsindia.org http://www.helpanimalsindia.org. She tries to teach local indian communities how to organize local community animal shelters... which helps with the cut down as animal dung littering the streets, among other things.
- statictype 14y ago
  Anecdotally, about ten years ago, when walking down a street once, a poor girl started following me around. I reached into my pocket and gave her a handful of whatever loose change I had lying around in there. She continued to badger me for the next 10min, even while I tried crossing the street multiple times to get her off my trail. I once got stopped by a couple that gave me a story about being left away from home and no means to get back etc... I gave them Rs.50 and they kind of stared at me with bewilderment like "that's all you're giving me" (And keep in mind that I'm not a white guy standing out in the crowd - I look just like every other Indian on the street :) ) Small things like this make me slightly more reluctant to give money to people on the street. I prefer to donate via charities that I help out with instead.
J3L2404 14y ago
That is truly horrible.
microarchitect 14y ago
This is just false. I have been discouraged from helping people, mostly for the reason that it could turn out to be more trouble that it's worth, but I have never been given this reason. Also, your explanation makes no sense from a theological perspective. I've always been taught that helping people will earn you karma, so it's in your selfish interest to help those in need.
- darien 14y ago
  I did not say that this was 'right', I merely said that it is one justification that is commonly used. Google "interfering with karma" and you will read various interpretations. http://www.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/working_with_karma.html http://www.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/wor... Here's an excerpt "If someone is born in an unfortunate situation, for instance into a very poor family, we explain it as due to past bad karma. We try to do more good karma this life in order to ensure we have a better rebirth. Is this chasing after happiness in life after life correct? Some people say, "Those people are poor because of their bad actions; therefore they are morally inferior. We shouldn't try to improve their situation because that would interfere with their karma. Rather, they should accept being in a lower class and try to create positive actions so they will be rich in future lives."
marbleint 14y ago
Say what you want, that is a disgusting justification for ignoring others suffering
statictype 14y ago
Besides the point others have made that many Indians don't think like this anymore, I just want to point out that it is possible to believe in karmic destiny and not use that as an excuse to not help people. The 'therefore' part of your observation doesn't necessarily follow from the premise and is more of an excuse used by people to justify behavior.
- darien 14y ago
  I agree completely, my apologies if I made it sound like a mathematical postulate.