4 ms·

You seem to have a pretty reserved attitude about this. And I hope you are doing okay.

lostdog 2y ago
Advice from morning people about sleep is usually as useful as cancer advice from homeopathics. I can understand his lack of interest here.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  And it's not how I hadn't already said I tried many things with invariably similar results. I might watch the videos if I find the time but it's definitely not in my list of priorities as I'm really skeptical that there will be anything there that I haven't already done or is similar in nature - mainly because outside of changing the world or CRISPR I'm not sure there is a way to "fix" this.
  - lostdog 2y ago
    I've now read a summary. It's just the same light, eating, and exercise changes, mixed with some night-owl denialism. All stuff I've tried dozens of times, which maybe moves my sleep by 15 minutes.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      Thanks for taking one for the team!
    - rramadass 2y ago
      No, you are needlessly trivializing it and maybe doing a disservice to others to whom it might be of great value. I am not sure what you read, but Dr. Satchin Panda's research is not the "same light, eating, and exercise changes, mixed with some night-owl denialism." You can watch his(and other circadian researchers) longer videos on Youtube for more knowledge. Also two books i can recommend are a) The Circadian Code by Satchin Panda and b) When : The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink. Circadian research is holistic since it studies how our body clocks (there are a set of them) are synchronized with Nature and thus when is the optimum time to do something with maximal benefit. Eg. When is the best time to take medicines for maximal efficacy, When is the best time to do exercise for maximum benefit etc. In the context of this thread, he doesn't talk about morning larks/night owls but merely allowing Natural Sunlight to tune us to its rhythms. So it doesn't matter what time you do get up in the morning (5/8/10AM etc.) but if you go and stand in the sunlight immediately after (or even better take a walk) your body adjusts itself so eventually you do get sleepy with sunset and awake at sunrise (within limits and control of other factors like exposure to other light sources). Similarly Exercise is most efficacious when done after 4PM etc. Most of these practices are zero-cost and risk-free and easily adjustable to individual variations and much better than popping Melatonin pills etc.
      - cassianoleal 2y ago
        I have done all that, so IMO GP is really not trivialising anything. This is about the same we've been hearing for years. If you want to know the effect of those "fixes" on the wrong person, re-read my big text. I've done it all. The "fix" only makes me sleepy early enough for the first or second night of a roughly weekly cycle. It also means a night with enough hours but not enough quality of sleep. > Most of these practices are zero-cost and risk-free They are really not. I went through a lot of issues for trying them. I nearly lost a job once, and I have missed social gatherings as I had to recover sleep in the weekend. Moreover, where I live now, I don't have the option of morning sunlight for a few months each year as there is none. In fact, there are whole days with so much grey and darkness that my body basically thinks it's always time to sleep so not easily adjustable either.
        rramadass 2y ago
        I did read all your detailed comments. They only mentioned time cycles but no other details. The reason i linked to couple of my previous comments is because i listed more details there to think about and investigate. For example, i list Diet and separately also Gut Health to consider. One of the key neurotransmitters affecting sleep is Serotonin which we now know to be mostly produced in the intestines. The Gut and Enteric Nervous System are known as "The Second Brain" (see book of the same name by Michael Gershon) and can act independently of the central nervous system. So one cause might be your gut is not producing enough Serotonin. On the Diet side Serotonin is made from Tryptophan so another cause might be your diet does not contain enough Tryptophan. For the lack of natural sunlight (SAD is well known) you might want to consider Vitamin-D and Melatonin supplements (but only after consulting with a doctor) and use one of those fancy lamps that mimic sunlight frequency ranges. As i pointed out, Circadian science is holistic so you need to take various factors into account both individually and in combinations to narrow down the problem. There are various scenarios to try out and see what makes a significant difference. While the science is solid the nuances are very important to consider.
        lostdog 2y ago
        I trivialized your comment because it was already trivial. You mentioned some video, but were too lazy to even link to it, much less summarize the main ideas so we could know if it was worth watching or not. I take vitamin-d and melatonin already, and have messed with lamps, early sun, exercise, and tryptophan (and magnesium, and theanine, and dozens of other stuff). All these things together affect my sleep and wake times by maybe 30 minutes. If you really did know about something I haven't read before dozens of times, then at least you could have written a sentence or two about what it is.

Advice from morning people about sleep is usually as useful as cancer advice from homeopathics. I can understand his lack of interest here.

cassianoleal 2y ago
And it's not how I hadn't already said I tried many things with invariably similar results. I might watch the videos if I find the time but it's definitely not in my list of priorities as I'm really skeptical that there will be anything there that I haven't already done or is similar in nature - mainly because outside of changing the world or CRISPR I'm not sure there is a way to "fix" this.
- lostdog 2y ago
  I've now read a summary. It's just the same light, eating, and exercise changes, mixed with some night-owl denialism. All stuff I've tried dozens of times, which maybe moves my sleep by 15 minutes.
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    Thanks for taking one for the team!
  - rramadass 2y ago
    No, you are needlessly trivializing it and maybe doing a disservice to others to whom it might be of great value. I am not sure what you read, but Dr. Satchin Panda's research is not the "same light, eating, and exercise changes, mixed with some night-owl denialism." You can watch his(and other circadian researchers) longer videos on Youtube for more knowledge. Also two books i can recommend are a) The Circadian Code by Satchin Panda and b) When : The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink. Circadian research is holistic since it studies how our body clocks (there are a set of them) are synchronized with Nature and thus when is the optimum time to do something with maximal benefit. Eg. When is the best time to take medicines for maximal efficacy, When is the best time to do exercise for maximum benefit etc. In the context of this thread, he doesn't talk about morning larks/night owls but merely allowing Natural Sunlight to tune us to its rhythms. So it doesn't matter what time you do get up in the morning (5/8/10AM etc.) but if you go and stand in the sunlight immediately after (or even better take a walk) your body adjusts itself so eventually you do get sleepy with sunset and awake at sunrise (within limits and control of other factors like exposure to other light sources). Similarly Exercise is most efficacious when done after 4PM etc. Most of these practices are zero-cost and risk-free and easily adjustable to individual variations and much better than popping Melatonin pills etc.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      I have done all that, so IMO GP is really not trivialising anything. This is about the same we've been hearing for years. If you want to know the effect of those "fixes" on the wrong person, re-read my big text. I've done it all. The "fix" only makes me sleepy early enough for the first or second night of a roughly weekly cycle. It also means a night with enough hours but not enough quality of sleep. > Most of these practices are zero-cost and risk-free They are really not. I went through a lot of issues for trying them. I nearly lost a job once, and I have missed social gatherings as I had to recover sleep in the weekend. Moreover, where I live now, I don't have the option of morning sunlight for a few months each year as there is none. In fact, there are whole days with so much grey and darkness that my body basically thinks it's always time to sleep so not easily adjustable either.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        I did read all your detailed comments. They only mentioned time cycles but no other details. The reason i linked to couple of my previous comments is because i listed more details there to think about and investigate. For example, i list Diet and separately also Gut Health to consider. One of the key neurotransmitters affecting sleep is Serotonin which we now know to be mostly produced in the intestines. The Gut and Enteric Nervous System are known as "The Second Brain" (see book of the same name by Michael Gershon) and can act independently of the central nervous system. So one cause might be your gut is not producing enough Serotonin. On the Diet side Serotonin is made from Tryptophan so another cause might be your diet does not contain enough Tryptophan. For the lack of natural sunlight (SAD is well known) you might want to consider Vitamin-D and Melatonin supplements (but only after consulting with a doctor) and use one of those fancy lamps that mimic sunlight frequency ranges. As i pointed out, Circadian science is holistic so you need to take various factors into account both individually and in combinations to narrow down the problem. There are various scenarios to try out and see what makes a significant difference. While the science is solid the nuances are very important to consider.
        lostdog 2y ago
        I trivialized your comment because it was already trivial. You mentioned some video, but were too lazy to even link to it, much less summarize the main ideas so we could know if it was worth watching or not. I take vitamin-d and melatonin already, and have messed with lamps, early sun, exercise, and tryptophan (and magnesium, and theanine, and dozens of other stuff). All these things together affect my sleep and wake times by maybe 30 minutes. If you really did know about something I haven't read before dozens of times, then at least you could have written a sentence or two about what it is.