5 ms·

I'm no expert and I don't have anyone better educated than me in this area to cite, so I'm going off what seems to be logical to me. There are people in areas

by corin_ 14y ago

I'm no expert and I don't have anyone better educated than me in this area to cite, so I'm going off what seems to be logical to me. There are people in areas where homosexuality is generally accepted (like American, UK etc.) - at least accepted enough that plenty of people can be open about their sexuality without too many problems - who don't acknowledge their sexuality early on in their life. Sometimes this means "not until a few years after puberty", sometimes not until they're middle aged or even older. Whether it's because it literally doesn't occur to them to consider the possibility, or whether they've had some feelings but ignored them, I'm not entirely sure, I suspect both cases happen. All I know is that these people do exist, people who genuinely take a long time to realise, not talking about people who know early on but take a long time to come out to others. So, if this is possible in society where, whatever your view on homosexuality, it's an understood fact that there are gay people out there, it logically extends that those people exist in countries where gay sex gets you a death penalty - and I would assume that it happens more there, because there's no built in expectation surrounding you that some people are gay. When I was at school there was a "known fact" through the school that 1 in 20 people are gay - so when I first thought about my own sexuality, I was aware that it was far from impossible for me to be gay. In some countries I'd have been raised to believe that I am definitely straight because there are no other options. I believe sexuality is something you are born with not brought up to have, therefore there should be as many gay Muslims as there are gay Atheists - culture can definitely prevent people from admitting it, but I think it can also prevent them from knowing it too. p.s. Hope you reply letting me know if I've made my thoughts clearer, and if so whether you agree or think I'm talking shit. It all makes sense to me, but I have no personal experience, having been lucky enough to never have had any fears or uncertainty about my being gay, and living somewhere where I've never actually spoken to someone (internet excluded) who had a problem with me because of it.

einhverfr 14y ago
Ok. So consider my experience..... When I was a kid and a teenager, and a young adult, I never found other men attractive personally. I suppose I could recognize attractive people to some extent but never felt sexually attracted. Then I read Plutarch's biographies of Spartan kings and he talks a lot about the role of pederasty in the political structure of Spartan society, and also talks about wifeswapping as a part of the political structure. And I also read works talking about prevalence of homosexual activity in many other cultures. And so I asked myself "if I was in such a culture would I be attracted to other men?" and it seemed the logical answer would be "yes." Keep in mind this was already in my thirties. I was already married, had 2 kids at the time (now have three), and all the sudden on realizing this, I started finding men sexually attractive too. I am not about to cheat on my wife with another man. But I will admit my attractions. So what does this mean? Was I bisexual all along and just had to be convinced by Plutarch? Or was there a cognitive shift that occurred from contemplating other places and times? How can you differentiate? Certainly it wasn't due to lack of exposure to gays. I had a gay roommate in college, a gay business partner for a while, etc.... My experience is a big part of the reason I am not convinced sexual orientation is in-born. I think it is very complicated and is relatively plastic.......
- corin_ 14y ago
  I read your comment a couple of minutes after you posted it but decided to sit on it a while try and think of the best way to reply - which hasn't come to me yet. I do think sexuality can be fluid, just the same as a hetero might change what they consider "their type". However if you change from straight to bisexual, were you ever really straight? Same question for gay to straight, or whatever. Maybe everyone is on a bisexual spectrum and some people are just really near one end of it.. but if that's the case, that we're all bi, then the entire discussion is irrelevant, so let's ignore that possibility. Is it possible that you have always been bisexual and for some reason didn't know it until reading up on history made you realise and accept it, I think yes. Is it possible that you were once genuinely not bisexual, but straight, and that this changed, yes as well. I don't think there's any way for me to know which is the case for you, I'm not sure there is any way for you to know either. Maybe I'm wrong - but hey, even if you think you know, are you necessarily right? I think I was born gay (well technically bisexual, homoromantic, but on the bisexual scale I'm about a 5.9 on the Kinsey scale [1]), but who knows, maybe if I hadn't gone to an all-boys school and experimented with friends when I was 11-13 I would today consider myself straight. For some reason I like to think that isn't the case, and that being gay is an original part of my DNA, but I guess realistically whatever way I ended up wouldn't have been any worse or better. And finally, how "homosexual", "straight" and "bisexual" are defined changes the answer to your questions. If the fact that you never experienced MSM action, or considered it, or fantasised about it, then I guess you fit the definition of 100% straight, and therefore yes you did change to become bisexual. On the other hand, if there is something in our DNA that defines what genders we can or can't be attracted to, maybe you had homosexuality inside you without knowing it, and other people, even if they experienced the exact same life as you, down to the most minute details, couldn't become bisexual the way you did. I really hope that sometime in my lifetime scientists discover some answers, because I think the whole subject is fascinating, and for that matter it's one that I haven't spent nearly as much time reading up on as I would like to have, so perhaps sometime I'll get onto changing that. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Table_of_the_scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Table_of_the_scale
  - einhverfr 14y ago

by corin_ 14y ago

einhverfr 14y ago

Ok. So consider my experience..... When I was a kid and a teenager, and a young adult, I never found other men attractive personally. I suppose I could recognize attractive people to some extent but never felt sexually attracted. Then I read Plutarch's biographies of Spartan kings and he talks a lot about the role of pederasty in the political structure of Spartan society, and also talks about wifeswapping as a part of the political structure. And I also read works talking about prevalence of homosexual activity in many other cultures. And so I asked myself "if I was in such a culture would I be attracted to other men?" and it seemed the logical answer would be "yes." Keep in mind this was already in my thirties. I was already married, had 2 kids at the time (now have three), and all the sudden on realizing this, I started finding men sexually attractive too. I am not about to cheat on my wife with another man. But I will admit my attractions. So what does this mean? Was I bisexual all along and just had to be convinced by Plutarch? Or was there a cognitive shift that occurred from contemplating other places and times? How can you differentiate? Certainly it wasn't due to lack of exposure to gays. I had a gay roommate in college, a gay business partner for a while, etc.... My experience is a big part of the reason I am not convinced sexual orientation is in-born. I think it is very complicated and is relatively plastic.......

corin_ 14y ago
I read your comment a couple of minutes after you posted it but decided to sit on it a while try and think of the best way to reply - which hasn't come to me yet. I do think sexuality can be fluid, just the same as a hetero might change what they consider "their type". However if you change from straight to bisexual, were you ever really straight? Same question for gay to straight, or whatever. Maybe everyone is on a bisexual spectrum and some people are just really near one end of it.. but if that's the case, that we're all bi, then the entire discussion is irrelevant, so let's ignore that possibility. Is it possible that you have always been bisexual and for some reason didn't know it until reading up on history made you realise and accept it, I think yes. Is it possible that you were once genuinely not bisexual, but straight, and that this changed, yes as well. I don't think there's any way for me to know which is the case for you, I'm not sure there is any way for you to know either. Maybe I'm wrong - but hey, even if you think you know, are you necessarily right? I think I was born gay (well technically bisexual, homoromantic, but on the bisexual scale I'm about a 5.9 on the Kinsey scale [1]), but who knows, maybe if I hadn't gone to an all-boys school and experimented with friends when I was 11-13 I would today consider myself straight. For some reason I like to think that isn't the case, and that being gay is an original part of my DNA, but I guess realistically whatever way I ended up wouldn't have been any worse or better. And finally, how "homosexual", "straight" and "bisexual" are defined changes the answer to your questions. If the fact that you never experienced MSM action, or considered it, or fantasised about it, then I guess you fit the definition of 100% straight, and therefore yes you did change to become bisexual. On the other hand, if there is something in our DNA that defines what genders we can or can't be attracted to, maybe you had homosexuality inside you without knowing it, and other people, even if they experienced the exact same life as you, down to the most minute details, couldn't become bisexual the way you did. I really hope that sometime in my lifetime scientists discover some answers, because I think the whole subject is fascinating, and for that matter it's one that I haven't spent nearly as much time reading up on as I would like to have, so perhaps sometime I'll get onto changing that. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Table_of_the_scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Table_of_the_scale
- einhverfr 14y ago