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> it is unarguable that only signed languages are easily accessible in all situations Even in the dark? Or at a distance? Or not facing the signer? Or with art

> it is unarguable that only signed languages are easily accessible in all situations Even in the dark? Or at a distance? Or not facing the signer? Or with arthritis? Differently abled folks are entitled to their own culture and beliefs. Yet claims like that seem to be trying too hard to find a silver lining.

robin_reala 2y ago
I’ve seen two signers on a train platform pause their conversation while one got on the train, then carry on through the window after they’d found a seat. While the article is hyperbolic, there are pros and cons to all modes of communication.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Right, I didn't mean to deny the advantages of signing. Rather point out some arguments are crossing over into absurdity.
- cbsks 2y ago
  I went on a scuba dive trip with a couple of deaf people and I was definitely jealous.
  - mitthrowaway2 2y ago
    You don't have to be deaf to learn sign language!
throw894389 2y ago
My deaf coworker does not even know sign language, she uses phone for everything. She lives perfectly normal life. Entire office is not going to learn new language, just to speak with an odd deaf person. And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words.
- techsupporter 2y ago
  > And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words. I want to gently push back on this. While sign languages do have signs for common, “basic” words (ASL has a lot of 1:1 mapped signs for English), sign languages are languages. They can, and do, express “specialized stuff”. I have two coworkers who are deaf and they absolutely communicate specialized medical and technical concepts to each other and other people who use sign language. It’s amazing to watch them sign to each other, as someone who is only intermediate at ASL.
- astura 2y ago
  >And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words. This part just absolutely and categorically untrue. I've personally witnessed people whiteboard code using only ASL on multiple different occasions.
- mapt 2y ago
  "Not possible" is a vast overstatement. We've negotiated imperial territory disputes and hired mercenaries on contract with pantomine. You get there eventually if you're motivated & creative. It's about how efficient using the language for that purpose is. If it lacks a lot of specialized jargon, that jargon needs to be unpacked into symbology that does exist in the language both people are trying to use. With any language learning, you revert to more basic forms in a sort of puzzle of "How do I say that?" if you don't have a deep exposure to the vocabulary. An elementary learner might use twenty words of clarification to be certain of communicating meaning where an expert uses six. With ASL, reverting to fingerspelling to bridge gaps in either person's vocabulary or in the existing corpus of well-known ASL vocabulary is also common. But fingerspelling and using long strings of basic words is painfully slow compared to higher bandwidth formats. If two people speak two languages, they can just pick the one that has the best mutual SNR, which allows for the most concise effective communication. Sometimes, that's going to be written text typed into a phone instead of ASL, and sometimes it's going to be the other way around.
  - throw894389 2y ago
mezzie2 2y ago
Or if you have to talk to a visually impaired person. My vision impairments are on the very mild end of the spectrum, but they're still enough to prevent any effective use of or learning of sign.
- bluGill 2y ago
  I have "met" people who are both blind and deaf. They use sign language by putting their hand on the hand of the signer and follow that way. (I only know a couple signs so it wasn't worth trying to talk to them except via interpreter and so saying I've met them is a bit strong) This also is proof that sign language works in the dark.
  - mezzie2 2y ago
    ASL (and sign language generally) and tactile sign are two different languages, and language types that are at least as different as verbal languages and seen/sign languages - an American deafblind person who uses tactile sign and meets someone who uses ASL isn't necessarily going to be able to communicate with them. The signs and underlying language structure (morphology/syntax/etc.) are all different. I wouldn't consider the existence of tactile sign to mean that sign language works in the dark because they're two different language types, but the terminology is confusing and I have a linguistics background so I don't know if the author was including tactile sign or not. I'd guess not since it's about teaching his daughter who is d/Deaf, not deafblind, and tactile sign isn't in much use outside of the deafblind community. d/Deaf and blind people don't use it much, I believe.
    - adinisom 2y ago
      They can definitely be distinct languages as is the case with protactile. For the deaf-blind people I've met, ASL is their first language and protactile is more of a second. Maybe it's different in other areas of the world. What I've noticed is that in deaf-blind contexts plain ASL is terrible for back-channeling information... is the listener paying attention? Agreeing? Disagreeing? Laughing? Protactile communicates these back to the signer using touch, and not touching is considered rude.
vr46 2y ago
At a distance works great, my friend (not deaf, but works in a school) taught her kids BSL (also not deaf) and recounted the story of how she was able to bollock the kids once in public across a hall. She also had no trouble ordering a drink from her boyfriend (not deaf) who was standing at the bar some way away in a crowded pub. Sign languages are indeed quite useful. The article seemed a bit straw man and whining, as well as recycling old ideas, such as letting groups isolate themselves from others, but I confess I was too bored to finish reading.
ben7799 2y ago
I think the bigger one is how does a signing person communicate in a situation where their hands are otherwise occupied and they can't stop using their hands for the other task? If you need to communicate while operating a vehicle sign language seem to put you at a disadvantage for example.

robin_reala 2y ago

I’ve seen two signers on a train platform pause their conversation while one got on the train, then carry on through the window after they’d found a seat. While the article is hyperbolic, there are pros and cons to all modes of communication.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Right, I didn't mean to deny the advantages of signing. Rather point out some arguments are crossing over into absurdity.
cbsks 2y ago
I went on a scuba dive trip with a couple of deaf people and I was definitely jealous.
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  You don't have to be deaf to learn sign language!

throw894389 2y ago

My deaf coworker does not even know sign language, she uses phone for everything. She lives perfectly normal life. Entire office is not going to learn new language, just to speak with an odd deaf person. And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words.

techsupporter 2y ago
> And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words. I want to gently push back on this. While sign languages do have signs for common, “basic” words (ASL has a lot of 1:1 mapped signs for English), sign languages are languages. They can, and do, express “specialized stuff”. I have two coworkers who are deaf and they absolutely communicate specialized medical and technical concepts to each other and other people who use sign language. It’s amazing to watch them sign to each other, as someone who is only intermediate at ASL.
astura 2y ago
>And communicating specialized stuff like technical programming is not possible, gestures only cover basic words. This part just absolutely and categorically untrue. I've personally witnessed people whiteboard code using only ASL on multiple different occasions.
mapt 2y ago
"Not possible" is a vast overstatement. We've negotiated imperial territory disputes and hired mercenaries on contract with pantomine. You get there eventually if you're motivated & creative. It's about how efficient using the language for that purpose is. If it lacks a lot of specialized jargon, that jargon needs to be unpacked into symbology that does exist in the language both people are trying to use. With any language learning, you revert to more basic forms in a sort of puzzle of "How do I say that?" if you don't have a deep exposure to the vocabulary. An elementary learner might use twenty words of clarification to be certain of communicating meaning where an expert uses six. With ASL, reverting to fingerspelling to bridge gaps in either person's vocabulary or in the existing corpus of well-known ASL vocabulary is also common. But fingerspelling and using long strings of basic words is painfully slow compared to higher bandwidth formats. If two people speak two languages, they can just pick the one that has the best mutual SNR, which allows for the most concise effective communication. Sometimes, that's going to be written text typed into a phone instead of ASL, and sometimes it's going to be the other way around.
- throw894389 2y ago

mezzie2 2y ago

Or if you have to talk to a visually impaired person. My vision impairments are on the very mild end of the spectrum, but they're still enough to prevent any effective use of or learning of sign.

bluGill 2y ago
I have "met" people who are both blind and deaf. They use sign language by putting their hand on the hand of the signer and follow that way. (I only know a couple signs so it wasn't worth trying to talk to them except via interpreter and so saying I've met them is a bit strong) This also is proof that sign language works in the dark.
- mezzie2 2y ago
  ASL (and sign language generally) and tactile sign are two different languages, and language types that are at least as different as verbal languages and seen/sign languages - an American deafblind person who uses tactile sign and meets someone who uses ASL isn't necessarily going to be able to communicate with them. The signs and underlying language structure (morphology/syntax/etc.) are all different. I wouldn't consider the existence of tactile sign to mean that sign language works in the dark because they're two different language types, but the terminology is confusing and I have a linguistics background so I don't know if the author was including tactile sign or not. I'd guess not since it's about teaching his daughter who is d/Deaf, not deafblind, and tactile sign isn't in much use outside of the deafblind community. d/Deaf and blind people don't use it much, I believe.
  - adinisom 2y ago
    They can definitely be distinct languages as is the case with protactile. For the deaf-blind people I've met, ASL is their first language and protactile is more of a second. Maybe it's different in other areas of the world. What I've noticed is that in deaf-blind contexts plain ASL is terrible for back-channeling information... is the listener paying attention? Agreeing? Disagreeing? Laughing? Protactile communicates these back to the signer using touch, and not touching is considered rude.

vr46 2y ago

At a distance works great, my friend (not deaf, but works in a school) taught her kids BSL (also not deaf) and recounted the story of how she was able to bollock the kids once in public across a hall. She also had no trouble ordering a drink from her boyfriend (not deaf) who was standing at the bar some way away in a crowded pub. Sign languages are indeed quite useful. The article seemed a bit straw man and whining, as well as recycling old ideas, such as letting groups isolate themselves from others, but I confess I was too bored to finish reading.

ben7799 2y ago

I think the bigger one is how does a signing person communicate in a situation where their hands are otherwise occupied and they can't stop using their hands for the other task? If you need to communicate while operating a vehicle sign language seem to put you at a disadvantage for example.