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Saying this as someone who is hearing but close to the deaf community in college and knows ASL. By trying to give her the best of both worlds she is going to di

Saying this as someone who is hearing but close to the deaf community in college and knows ASL. By trying to give her the best of both worlds she is going to diminish both worlds. Not fully in the deaf community and not fully in the hearing community.

Etheryte 2y ago
An alternative framing would be that she gets to experience both to at least some extent, and isn't that better?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rincebrain 2y ago
  I think a lot of people who have their feet in multiple commonly "either/or" cultures have written quite a lot about the struggle to establish their own identity given those cultures framing many things in terms of, for lack of a better word, sole/primary membership. I'm not sure anyone can say better or worse, in a useful fashion, objectively - more options can also lead to more ambiguity and stress, as with anything in life. They're not wrong to say that by necessity, your experience is going to be different if it's defined in terms of choices made before you had agency, that are not mutable - your lived experiences are going to be very different if you cannot hear at all, and spent 10000 hours or w/e framing everything in your life around that, versus being able to hear. Unfortunately, I think absent something else, this will go the same way as most narratives of cultures where there are utilitarian reasons to not remain in it - people will often choose the route of most visible potential benefit, in these situations. Something more "ideal", in theory, would be if we could ignore critical periods, and just let people choose in adulthood to learn verbal language, but even that presents the problem that the majority dictates the "easy" option, and by nature, people who are not in that group will sometimes be the ones acting as sandpaper on rough edges in that interaction, as they're not as well-polished. (Look at all the government systems in the US that don't know how to handle more than the common "firstname lastname", for example.) So even that option presents the problems of utilitarian optimization resulting in rational actors just opting out of the more demanding route. e: Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say I think any of what I just described is "good" - I think homogeneity in human experience deprives everyone of enrichment in the variation of life. But I don't see a way to optimize for this where given the ability, a lot of people don't choose the lower-friction route in their lives.
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    "Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say I think any of what I just described is "good"" Yes, this has been the problem. Many in the Deaf Community do not see being deaf as "bad", but that is the label society has put on them.
    - Etheryte 2y ago
      I mean, why would they? It would only create negative emotions, but it wouldn't have any positive impact on anything. Feeling bad about a condition can be useful if it can propel you to improve the situation, e.g. if you're an alcoholic and you feel bad about it, you might stop drinking. But for conditions where it's out of your control and there is no cure, framing it as bad does not do any good. No one needs to wallow in self pity thinking oh if only I was born different, especially if they can lead rich and fulfilling lives.
      - bluGill 2y ago
        More importantly, by framing it as a thing (not good or bad just is) they can find ways around the issues. They can live their life just fine. Sure there are some things you cannot do without hearing, but there are more things to do in life than there is time anyway so there isn't a problem. You can't enjoy a symphony concert, but there are a lot of people who could do that yet don't. You can still enjoy a baseball game with those people, or if you don't like baseball - many others don't was well, just ...
keiferski 2y ago
Do you think bilingual kids have the same issue? I don’t.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  The article talks about the capital-D Deaf community. It’s not just a different language, it’s a different culture.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    And people that speak say, Chinese and American English, don’t have two different cultures?
    - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
      Knowing ASL does not make me Deaf. And knowing Mandarin does not make me Chinese.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        Obviously my example was for someone that grew up speaking Chinese and American English natively, as in a person of Chinese descent that grew up in America. There are millions of such people. I think you're missing the point entirely.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Language does not make the culture. There are many deaf people who are not part of the Deaf culture. There are many people who have heard all their life but are also part of the Deaf culture. There are many different cultures in the US. Some are more similar than others. There is a Chinese culture in the US - as someone not part of it I'm content to call it one, but I'm sure those in it know of differences that I cannot see.
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    Language facilitate access to culture. You think that Deaf culture is the only culture you can’t fully participate in without speaking the language?
sarchertech 2y ago
Who knows what the Deaf community is going to look like in 20 years when this kid is in college. Treatments for hearing loss are advancing and it’s likely that most of her peers will be in a similar position to her. 80% of deaf children born in developed countries receive cochlear implants.
saalweachter 2y ago
This isn't really a conflict unique to membership in the deaf/hearing communities. You can be the kid who stayed on the farm or the kid who left the farm for the big city, but you can't be both. You can be the kid who spends half the year on the farm and half in the city, or the kid who went to the big city for twenty years before returning to the farm, but those are different things. We all only get one life to live. All we can do is try to pick a good path and enjoy the stories from people who picked different paths. A person who picks a hybrid path doesn't get to fully enjoy either path, but they do get to enjoy some of each, and they get to be the storyteller who tells the city kids about the farm and the farm kids about the city.
Almondsetat 2y ago
The hearing... community?
ttpphd 2y ago
Have you met the undergrads at Gallaudet University? They live in both worlds.

Etheryte 2y ago

An alternative framing would be that she gets to experience both to at least some extent, and isn't that better?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rincebrain 2y ago
I think a lot of people who have their feet in multiple commonly "either/or" cultures have written quite a lot about the struggle to establish their own identity given those cultures framing many things in terms of, for lack of a better word, sole/primary membership. I'm not sure anyone can say better or worse, in a useful fashion, objectively - more options can also lead to more ambiguity and stress, as with anything in life. They're not wrong to say that by necessity, your experience is going to be different if it's defined in terms of choices made before you had agency, that are not mutable - your lived experiences are going to be very different if you cannot hear at all, and spent 10000 hours or w/e framing everything in your life around that, versus being able to hear. Unfortunately, I think absent something else, this will go the same way as most narratives of cultures where there are utilitarian reasons to not remain in it - people will often choose the route of most visible potential benefit, in these situations. Something more "ideal", in theory, would be if we could ignore critical periods, and just let people choose in adulthood to learn verbal language, but even that presents the problem that the majority dictates the "easy" option, and by nature, people who are not in that group will sometimes be the ones acting as sandpaper on rough edges in that interaction, as they're not as well-polished. (Look at all the government systems in the US that don't know how to handle more than the common "firstname lastname", for example.) So even that option presents the problems of utilitarian optimization resulting in rational actors just opting out of the more demanding route. e: Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say I think any of what I just described is "good" - I think homogeneity in human experience deprives everyone of enrichment in the variation of life. But I don't see a way to optimize for this where given the ability, a lot of people don't choose the lower-friction route in their lives.
- FollowingTheDao 2y ago
  "Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say I think any of what I just described is "good"" Yes, this has been the problem. Many in the Deaf Community do not see being deaf as "bad", but that is the label society has put on them.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    I mean, why would they? It would only create negative emotions, but it wouldn't have any positive impact on anything. Feeling bad about a condition can be useful if it can propel you to improve the situation, e.g. if you're an alcoholic and you feel bad about it, you might stop drinking. But for conditions where it's out of your control and there is no cure, framing it as bad does not do any good. No one needs to wallow in self pity thinking oh if only I was born different, especially if they can lead rich and fulfilling lives.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      More importantly, by framing it as a thing (not good or bad just is) they can find ways around the issues. They can live their life just fine. Sure there are some things you cannot do without hearing, but there are more things to do in life than there is time anyway so there isn't a problem. You can't enjoy a symphony concert, but there are a lot of people who could do that yet don't. You can still enjoy a baseball game with those people, or if you don't like baseball - many others don't was well, just ...

keiferski 2y ago

Do you think bilingual kids have the same issue? I don’t.

robin_reala 2y ago
The article talks about the capital-D Deaf community. It’s not just a different language, it’s a different culture.
- keiferski 2y ago
  And people that speak say, Chinese and American English, don’t have two different cultures?
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    Knowing ASL does not make me Deaf. And knowing Mandarin does not make me Chinese.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Obviously my example was for someone that grew up speaking Chinese and American English natively, as in a person of Chinese descent that grew up in America. There are millions of such people. I think you're missing the point entirely.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Language does not make the culture. There are many deaf people who are not part of the Deaf culture. There are many people who have heard all their life but are also part of the Deaf culture. There are many different cultures in the US. Some are more similar than others. There is a Chinese culture in the US - as someone not part of it I'm content to call it one, but I'm sure those in it know of differences that I cannot see.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  Language facilitate access to culture. You think that Deaf culture is the only culture you can’t fully participate in without speaking the language?

sarchertech 2y ago

Who knows what the Deaf community is going to look like in 20 years when this kid is in college. Treatments for hearing loss are advancing and it’s likely that most of her peers will be in a similar position to her. 80% of deaf children born in developed countries receive cochlear implants.

saalweachter 2y ago

This isn't really a conflict unique to membership in the deaf/hearing communities. You can be the kid who stayed on the farm or the kid who left the farm for the big city, but you can't be both. You can be the kid who spends half the year on the farm and half in the city, or the kid who went to the big city for twenty years before returning to the farm, but those are different things. We all only get one life to live. All we can do is try to pick a good path and enjoy the stories from people who picked different paths. A person who picks a hybrid path doesn't get to fully enjoy either path, but they do get to enjoy some of each, and they get to be the storyteller who tells the city kids about the farm and the farm kids about the city.

Almondsetat 2y ago

The hearing... community?

ttpphd 2y ago

Have you met the undergrads at Gallaudet University? They live in both worlds.