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There was a comment here complaining that Matrix is a failure as an open protocol because encryption in Matrix is too complex and hard and PFS is overrated and
by Arathorn 2y ago
There was a comment here complaining that Matrix is a failure as an open protocol because encryption in Matrix is too complex and hard and PFS is overrated and "why can't we have a simple protocol for chat like Wireguard is for VPNs"... but it got deleted while i as writing my reply. I'll post the reply anyway:
Matrix without encryption is as simple as it gets - e.g. here was a younger, happier me writing a working client in 8 lines of bash: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20948530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20948530
With encryption, inevitably things get way more complicated - especially in a decentralised network which needs to be byzantine fault tolerant. As you say, we've successfully simplified this by providing best-in-class implementations like matrix-rust-sdk-crypto - which i'd argue is the equivalent to Wireguard (which under the hood is a bunch of gnarly crypto, even if the API it exposes it simple).
In the end, encrypting messaging is just way harder than a VPN. The encryption hooks need to know the membership of the room (as users), the membership of the room (as devices), verify identities of all devices and their users to prevent MITM, verify that only the right devices can be added to the room, handle accessing history for new logins and new joiners, handle backing up history if you log out of all devices, handle receiving msgs if you log out of all devices, handle encrypted push notifs and allow multiple processes (push, share extension, etc) to share the same crypto state, scale to thousands of devices, etc etc.
Meanwhile if you simplify that by removing PFS - sure, some of it gets better ("the room history gets encrypted by a static password!") but then breaching that secret from any client at any point trivially leaks the whole history of the room.
In terms of "Matrix as an open protocol isn't very successful", i suggest taking a look at https://2024.matrix.org/watch/ https://2024.matrix.org/watch/ for the zeitgeist from a few weeks ago. It's working for some folks at least.
- INTPenis 2y agoThe thing is, while we were all waiting for Matrix clients to handle Encryption several other encrypted messengers came out and seem to handle it just fine. For example I've been using SimpleX in a group chat for a year now and had no issues at all.
- Arathorn 2y agoI'd argue that SimpleX has probably learned from the path Matrix has been on... and so has Matrix. So you end up with multiple viable options to pick from, and to drive each other forwards; sounds like a good outcome to me.
- ThePhysicist 2y agoI deleted it as I was anticipating exactly such replies that just tell me all the ways in which I'm wrong and just make me feel dumb for voicing an opinion, and I realize I don't enjoy these kind of discussions anymore. It was up for like 3 minutes before I realized my mistake, sorry about deleting it I guess.
- Arathorn 2y agoi suggest reading the comments here and try to figure out what direction the steamroller is rolling...
- abnercoimbre 2y agoDon't take it too personally, they seem to be speaking from some automatic playbook. I run indie conferences for a living [0]. From 2020 - 2023 we gave Matrix a serious shot: enough to risk losing audience members who found the UX unbearable. Then a third of my ticket holders threatened to leave if we kept using it. I was forced to drop it [1]. This year, I’m self-hosting Revolt, a lightweight Discord clone. Unlike Matrix my community's actually loving it. If Matrix leadership is reading this, take heed. [0] https://handmadecities.com https://handmadecities.com [1] https://handmadecities.com/news/new-discord-server/ https://handmadecities.com/news/new-discord-server/
- Arathorn 2y agoI'm not speaking from a playbook. Sorry that Element worked out so badly for you. Other conferences like FOSDEM seem to be pretty happy with it. If you don't need encryption, decentralisation, or an open standard, then Revolt looks like a reasonable FOSS Discord clone.
- abnercoimbre 2y agoGlad you're not using any playbook. The commenter above us represents a growing sentiment worth considering. In my opinion, placating every negative feedback might backfire.
- whereistimbo 2y agoI'm hopeful for Matrix future success as I'm rooting for Matrix! Props for you for growing Matrix into this big! Also, this blog post is still I'm hoping for to be realized sometimes soon: Breaking the 100bps barrier with Matrix, meshsim and coap-proxy (2019): https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barrier-with-matrix-meshsim-coap-proxy/ https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barr...
- Arathorn 2y agome too. but like all the more scifi Matrix projects, the core team does not have the funds to work on it, so it's stuck in favour of foundational work. Others are welcome to pick it up and contribute it, or apply funding to the core team to let us work on it again: https://matrix.org/blog/2024/01/2024-roadmap-and-fundraiser/ https://matrix.org/blog/2024/01/2024-roadmap-and-fundraiser/
- whereistimbo 2y agoYou call it scifi? It's already realized lol! What talented guys you are!
- whereistimbo 2y agoAlso I would like to see other scifi matrix project like P2P, surely it would be useful like in case of emergency. https://web.archive.org/web/20241128152504/https://ugx17w.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mAqW4Ot64axe2XjnxO019n3ar-zXVS0Dq90PUDyZYtQddW5ixp4-YTuFmPI6YOQdnzNs9WVee6ajcV6_50qO75V06UNoXoSs3h6IajMO1f-c9C2gsIk-CtS-rTWRrFeexYu2RX3006dgxR707qy0eR4MvCaT0hIpdrEelDuZBq37vrAr_d1Z5wKvGLvSda-n-bXVA5BnhtB3GRej_TrmmVkHr_T_4Sj_ySyodb9yH-iA https://web.archive.org/web/20241128152504/https://ugx17w.dm...
- RadiozRadioz 2y ago> a younger, happier me I hope you're okay. I have notifications set up for anything Matrix/ XMPP on HN, and I very often see you in the comments. Some of the threads on here are really harsh and unnecessarily snarky, I don't know how you do it. You're doing great.