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>Religion was ex-post-facto applied to marriage, not vice versa. Wrong, marriage was a religious ceremony all along. Maybe you have "mating" in mind, not marri

• potatolicious 14y ago
  Warning: long post, because I'm tired and kind of irked. > "Not to mention that the pure and "non religion like" idea of Buddhism that westerners have is not at all how it works for common people in China or asia in general." I'm Chinese. Please do not seek to describe my own culture back to me with Wikipedia. For one thing, I object strongly to the use of "shenism" - it's as much an "ism" as "Westernism" is an "ism". It's an umbrella to try to catch entirely dissimilar and wildly variable things all in one bucket, and it implies a level of coherence that simply does not exist. The folk religions of China wildly vary depending on people and region, and to try and slam it all into an "ism" makes about as much sense as trying to corral all Native American beliefs into the umbrella "Aboriginism". "shenism" transliterates into "deism". How much sense does that make to you? Reading Wikipedia articles on Chinese religious belief is like reading a terrible social sciences textbook from high school. It captures none of the context and none of the spirit of what is actually worshipped. Instead it's just a purely academic account with purely academic distinctions drawn between things. > "Even confucianism serves the role of religion, with several societal norms and guidelines etc." This has always been a vibrant topic of debate in Chinese society, and I'm surprised you can confidently say that when no one who practices it can seemingly agree. Confucianism lacks the hallmarks that identify other religions (including ones practiced in China) - most notably the complete lack of deities, or in fact any belief in the supernatural. Most adherents seem to regard it as a philosophy and cultural imperative (given its dominance of Chinese intellectualism over history) rather than a religion. The need to label it as a religion, in fact, seems to derive from Western inability to categorize it in their world view. IMO if we start classifying Confucianism as a religion, then we need to throw democracy, libertarianism, communist, and capitalism into the religion pot too. > "Buddhism in China is _one_ of several religions. Taoism, Shenism, etc, are as prevalent." Indeed. Well, not really, sort of. It's complicated. Traditional Buddhism and Taoism are relatively rare amongst the general population, though has gained more traction in recent times. Most people adhere to a mish-mash of Buddhist thought, Taoist belief, and what you describe as "shenism", not one of the above. This giant religion-gumbo more or less deserves its own name, but we really don't have a good word for it. An important side effect of this is that religion in Chinese society is largely grassroots and disorganized (well, until the introduction of Judeo-Christian thought). You will find people worshipping Buddhist deities (or deified Buddhist not-deities) right alongside traditional folk deities, using rituals that are not at all similar to what you might find in original Buddhist scripture. Wikipedia tries to characterize this as "shenism", though as previously mentioned, this is a nonsense concept. Though I would not be categorically opposed to finding a word for "that crazy mix of Buddhism, Taoism, and local geocentric folk religions that is practiced in various ways in China" - bit of a mouthful after all. Only if they choose a word that's less stupid than "shenism". "Shenism" is not a coherent religion, and as currently defined just means "people that believe in deities in China". In any case, this is a very roundabout way of addressing your point: > "Actually religion predates most forms of even government and cultural practice." Which means... exactly what? My contention is the marriage as practiced in China is not primarily a religious event. It features no priests, no church steeples, nor synagogues, nor mosques. It features no overarching religious motif, though it is common for various aspects of folk religion to manifest as ancillary rituals - folk religions that lack any form of organization and scripture, mind you. No religious figures are present - neither priest nor monk. In fact, none of the major components of Chinese marriage, from proposal to tying the knot, are religious in nature, nor do they even have hints of religious meaning. If Chinese folk religion created the institution of marriage, then why is it none of the entire process involves religious worship of any sort? In fact, if it's primarily a religious exercise, why is it that the rituals and traditions are pretty much all the same even for traditional Buddhists and Taoists? Or perhaps, alternatively, marriage in China is primarily a cultural institution, where religious motifs are applied, removed, and changed over millenia to suit the religious mores of its time?
  • einhverfr 14y ago
    I don't know that much about Chinese religions so taking what you write about it at face value. My interest more is to try to clarify what we are talking about wrt religion. I: Confucianism and religion. I think the real challenge here is to define religion. As I define religion there is no question it qualifies. Namely: A religion is a tradition of myths and/or rituals which transmit and encode patterns of meaning which can be flexibly applied to life in order to make sense of what happens all around us. It is not necessary to believe in historical accuracy of myths (this obligation to believe was new with Christianity). Adherents may in fact have complete freedom to make sense of the tradition however they like. Interestingly there are religions (the traditional Hopi religion among Native Americans, for example) which incorporate forms of atheism into them, so a lack of deities isn't fatal. My understanding is that Confucianism would meet this definition. Would you disagree? You have rituals, stories, etc. which create the patterns of society. The same with Taoism in a different way. II: Meaning and function of religion I think our brains work on mythic levels as well as logical levels. I think that religion gives us ways to understand patterns of life which are beyond what we can do in a reductionist approach. I think it has always done this in a way which is deeply tied to culture. That's why I agree with the GP that religious rituals recognizing procreative marriage are entirely universal. If Chinese folk religion created the institution of marriage, then why is it none of the entire process involves religious worship of any sort? I don't know that you would define it as religious worship but at least what little I know of it has religious symbols woven throughout the practice. It is ritualized in a religious context. I don't think all religions demand worship though. For example, why is red so highly associated with weddings? Then there is the tea ceremony. My knowledge of all this is pretty highly abridged because my wife told her family when we got married to abridge the Chinese rituals.
    • sp332 14y ago
      batista said Wrong, marriage was a religious ceremony all along. Which doesn't seem to make much sense given potatolicious' post.
      • einhverfr 14y ago
• einhverfr 14y ago
  >Wrong, marriage was a religious ceremony all along. Maybe you have "mating" in mind, not marriage. Check anthropological accounts. Actually religion predates most forms of even government and cultural practice. I think the problem here is defining religion. Many people here equate it with belief. Certainly religious marriage in the Protestant sense of religious only comes around after the advent of Christianity, perhaps after the advent of Protestantism.... But as you point out, ritualizing (almost always with religious symbolism, again for anthropological definitions of religion, not Protestant definitions) procreative marriage is universal. In fact I would point out it is more universal than is ritualizing remembering the dead. Fewer cultures don't have rituals involving procreative marriage than don't have rituals for funerals, etc. >Religion is a "Big Fucking Deal" in all fucking cultures. Visit any archeological museum of any civilization to check this out. It's just that there are many forms of religion, and not all involved a bearded deity in the clouds. Even confucianism serves the role of religion, with several societal norms and guidelines etc. I think again the problem is defining religion. Here in the West we see religion as a system of belief. Outside the sphere of Christian influence (Christianity, Orthodox Judiasm, Islam, Sikhdom, and derivatives), religion is a far more flexible concept than that.