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I have yet to meet someone with decent software development skills and a degree in a scientific/engineering field that had any trouble finding good work. I have

I have yet to meet someone with decent software development skills and a degree in a scientific/engineering field that had any trouble finding good work. I have seen a lot of unfilled postdoc and higher positions due to inability to find competent people.

thaumasiotes 14y ago
At the risk of whining... I'm now three years out of college, still trying to get a tech job (during the middle year, I was otherwise employed and not trying). My degree is a double major in CS / math; I obviously can't provide an objective evaluation of "decent software development skills", but I worked at CreateSpace for six months during college with no complaints in that regard, and I got that position by winning the contests they'd hold at my school. It's getting to the point where I wonder if I should go back to college so I can be eligible for internships... Certainly, I'll take a portion of blame here for being totally incompetent at seeking and landing jobs. But I'm so, so sick of the memes that "tech hiring is super hot right now / it's a seller's market in tech labor / look how easy it is to get work". Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people?
- patio11 14y ago
  So, those memes are true descriptions of the market right now. You have presented persuasive evidence that you have sufficient programming skill to be marketable at present. How about spending the next six weeks in a self-directed boot camp for learning how to be better at seeking and landing jobs? Treat it like you're learning a new language: wake up in the morning, go to it, pound on it until evening, stop. There's a billion things you can do to start here. In general, read Ramit Sethi on the topic. Specifically, who do you know that has hiring authority? (Buddies at CreateSpace? Have any moved on?) Who can they introduce you to? Do you like coffee? I actually don't, but they often sell chai tea at the same places, and you could drink pretty much infinite chai tea right now just by saying "I can FizzBuzz, interested in getting coffee or something?" Hiring directors at most companies needing engineers are desperate and they'd love to hear you out, if for no other reason than you maybe be Starcraft buddies with their next hire.
  - Woost 14y ago
    I don't see anything that mentions where he is...it's entirely possible that he's in the middle of nowhere tech-job-wise. If that's the case, the first move should be "go somewhere with a tech job market".
    - natrius 14y ago
      Google suggests he lives in Santa Cruz. I'd always assumed someone with his description would have no problem finding a job in the Bay Area.
    - mechanical_fish 14y ago
      One reason why patio11 suggests the whole "coffee" angle is that a coffee meeting is a better way to provide personalized advice. Otherwise we're reduced to playing HN Twenty Questions. ("Startup or not a startup? Bay Area or not Bay Area? Is your CV bigger than a breadbox?") Having said that, "are you looking for your dream job in Zanesville, Ohio, or in SoMA?" is a fine entry in the Twenty Questions game. My own contributions would be: A) "Could you put some contact information in your HN profile?" B) "Can you describe something you've actually built? And if you haven't built anything yet, could you build something this week and send us the link to its Github page?" But, of course, this is Twenty Questions, so either of these could turn out to be silly questions once we know the context.
      - thaumasiotes 14y ago
        (A) yes, I was bitten by the "your 'email' setting doesn't show" feature. It got me even though I'd been warned in the past. :( (B) (1) This past week, as part of an interview, I've built a django project that provides text and video chat to logged-in users. This is, I would say, small-scale. (2) Some years ago, I wrote a quick scraper to download Peanuts archives from comics.com. The main thing I learned from that was that, years afterwards, I encountered the web page for Beautiful Soup and immediately understood what problem it was dealing with. I'd call the scraper tiny in scale. I'm not too sure what qualifies as a "project", but, as you guess, I haven't done much. (3) If you have hiring authority, or even if you just know someone who does, I'm happy to build something for you. I'm less happy to think of something to build myself. :/ As to the pre-questions, I don't have much of an opinion on startup vs non-startup, I'd prefer to be in the Bay Area, and my CV is, unfortunately, smaller than a breadbox. I'm apprehensive about moving somewhere just on spec; as a cousin post illustrates, that seems like a great way to exhaust all your cash and still not have a job. I'm only too happy to move for a job, since Santa Cruz could be charitably described as a "dead end". Please, anyone, email me: username at gmail
- genwin 14y ago
  Step 1 is moving to where the jobs are. Where depends on the skill; use job search engines (e.g. indeed.com) to find where. It is easy to get work with the right skill and location. Assuming you're young, you should have no problem if you do step 1.
- tokenadult 14y ago
  I'm now three years out of college, still trying to get a tech job (during the middle year, I was otherwise employed and not trying). My degree is a double major in CS / math My deepest sympathies about your job search. The "double major in computer science and mathematics" part of what you wrote sounds scary, as I have a large circle of acquaintance among young people who are pursuing similar studies. I don't have comprehensive information about how the general mass of such students is doing, but I'll relate a few anecdotes that may suggest some paths forward for you. Anecdote 1, a scary anecdote: A few years ago, that is BEFORE the financial system crash threw the world into recession, I had occasion to meet a young man who had been on his state's all-state mathematics team to compete in the ARML contest http://www.arml.com/ http://www.arml.com/ during high school. Rather than stay in-state for his computer science degree, he went to another state to attend its state university (presumably on financial grounds). The other state's state university is a Big Ten university that ought to have a decent reputation for its computer science department. But as I met this young man, he was four or five months out of college, and living in his parent's basement while still looking for work. Anecdote 2, a lot less scary: Another young person I know, nineteen years old (barely) just now, accelerated his high school studies by doing two years of dual enrollment (college studies as part of his high school program) with a grade skip or two thrown in besides. He did not participate in any formal mathematics competition programs. He then transfered to our state university as an advanced standing undergraduate, and finished up an undergraduate degree in computer science (with a few but not a lot of elective courses in mathematics beyond the computer science major requirements) before he was eighteen years old. Since he turned eighteen, he has been out on the west coast, and is now in Silicon Valley, telling many of his friends that there are a LOT of jobs for anyone who is a decent programmer. He programs for fun and has apparently always done well in his school programming assignments and in technical interviews. He is convinced that anyone who can get through a technical interview with coding work-sample testing can find a good job in Silicon Valley. Anecdotes 3-5: I know several other young people who got various summer internships during various phases of their recent undergraduate studies in computer science at various universities, and once they made a good impression on one company by their work in the internship, they started looking around at other possibilities around the country. All of the better job opportunities seem to use the research-based process of work sample tests as part of hiring. One young person I know who is in the job search phase just now while wrapping up a summer internship has had full-day technical interviews with multiple work-sample tests and discussion of each phase of the work samples after each test. It's gratifying to hear that some of the young people I know are getting to the second interview phase at multiple companies and some others have started career jobs at Google (if that's the kind of job they like) or at brand-new startups (if that is what they like). The crucial thing seems to be being able to do on the spot what industry jobs expect programmers to do. In the extreme case, people who can do that who haven't finished their college degree programs seem to be able to find career jobs. It doesn't sound like the degree as such is really the crucial hiring criterion in most places. Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people? It is possible to have strong development skills without years of full-time employment in career industry jobs if one does the right kind of recreational reading and takes on challenging programming tasks "for fun." I know a few such people. For them, where they went to college, what they majored in during college, and whether or not they finished college seem to be almost incidental details about their biographies. Good luck in your job search!
- ericb 14y ago
  If I were in your shoes, I'd either work on my own startup, or create some demo projects in a hot area like IOS or Rails. Register as a DBA (Doing Business As) and put your side project/startup as a job on your resume. Then put your resume up on monster.com. If you become proficient in an in-demand skill, jobs will find you. If the skill is hot enough, remote jobs will be available. Now you have to pass the interviews, but that is another matter. Note that you need to learn all the ancillary technologies to be a strong candidate (git, for example).
- alinajaf 14y ago
  > Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people? This is going to sound mean, but have you considered doing entry-level programming jobs that aren't so great to get that experience? Digital agencies that don't know any better are always looking for people to build CRUD websites, and it's where a lot of other experienced developers I know cut their teeth. I don't know about the average programmer on HN, but most of my ability to deliver value to clients comes from the battle-scars and horror stories of working at not-so-great jobs, along with learning from the few exceptionally bright people I happened to be working alongside. You can't pick that up at university, via online tutorials or even dare I say it, by reading HN.
  - thaumasiotes 14y ago
    Yes, of course I've considered that. Where would I apply? I've never tried to present myself as anything other than entry-level.
- jedbrown 14y ago
  Writing good libraries seems to take a reasonable amount of experience. Of course if you have been doing a significant amount of software as a student, you'll have a head start. My skills improved a great deal when I transitioned from one-off projects to research-driven projects (where the project lasts longer and requests for new capability appear as research progresses) and open source development. What sort of math background do you have? Any experience with numerical methods for PDEs, discrete optimization, uncertainty quantification, graph analysis? If you pick up an issue of SIAM J. Scientific Computing, J. Computational Physics, or Computer Methods in Applied Mechanics and Engineering, can you make some sense of the articles? Academic faculty and many senior industry research positions want to see PhD, but there are plenty of places just looking for a software person that "speaks the language". What sort of places have you tried applying? After years of going to research conferences and getting several offers at each one (despite not "looking"), knowing colleagues with unfilled positions, etc, I'm certain the demand exists.

thaumasiotes 14y ago

At the risk of whining... I'm now three years out of college, still trying to get a tech job (during the middle year, I was otherwise employed and not trying). My degree is a double major in CS / math; I obviously can't provide an objective evaluation of "decent software development skills", but I worked at CreateSpace for six months during college with no complaints in that regard, and I got that position by winning the contests they'd hold at my school. It's getting to the point where I wonder if I should go back to college so I can be eligible for internships... Certainly, I'll take a portion of blame here for being totally incompetent at seeking and landing jobs. But I'm so, so sick of the memes that "tech hiring is super hot right now / it's a seller's market in tech labor / look how easy it is to get work". Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people?

patio11 14y ago
So, those memes are true descriptions of the market right now. You have presented persuasive evidence that you have sufficient programming skill to be marketable at present. How about spending the next six weeks in a self-directed boot camp for learning how to be better at seeking and landing jobs? Treat it like you're learning a new language: wake up in the morning, go to it, pound on it until evening, stop. There's a billion things you can do to start here. In general, read Ramit Sethi on the topic. Specifically, who do you know that has hiring authority? (Buddies at CreateSpace? Have any moved on?) Who can they introduce you to? Do you like coffee? I actually don't, but they often sell chai tea at the same places, and you could drink pretty much infinite chai tea right now just by saying "I can FizzBuzz, interested in getting coffee or something?" Hiring directors at most companies needing engineers are desperate and they'd love to hear you out, if for no other reason than you maybe be Starcraft buddies with their next hire.
- Woost 14y ago
  I don't see anything that mentions where he is...it's entirely possible that he's in the middle of nowhere tech-job-wise. If that's the case, the first move should be "go somewhere with a tech job market".
  - natrius 14y ago
    Google suggests he lives in Santa Cruz. I'd always assumed someone with his description would have no problem finding a job in the Bay Area.
  - mechanical_fish 14y ago
    One reason why patio11 suggests the whole "coffee" angle is that a coffee meeting is a better way to provide personalized advice. Otherwise we're reduced to playing HN Twenty Questions. ("Startup or not a startup? Bay Area or not Bay Area? Is your CV bigger than a breadbox?") Having said that, "are you looking for your dream job in Zanesville, Ohio, or in SoMA?" is a fine entry in the Twenty Questions game. My own contributions would be: A) "Could you put some contact information in your HN profile?" B) "Can you describe something you've actually built? And if you haven't built anything yet, could you build something this week and send us the link to its Github page?" But, of course, this is Twenty Questions, so either of these could turn out to be silly questions once we know the context.
    - thaumasiotes 14y ago
      (A) yes, I was bitten by the "your 'email' setting doesn't show" feature. It got me even though I'd been warned in the past. :( (B) (1) This past week, as part of an interview, I've built a django project that provides text and video chat to logged-in users. This is, I would say, small-scale. (2) Some years ago, I wrote a quick scraper to download Peanuts archives from comics.com. The main thing I learned from that was that, years afterwards, I encountered the web page for Beautiful Soup and immediately understood what problem it was dealing with. I'd call the scraper tiny in scale. I'm not too sure what qualifies as a "project", but, as you guess, I haven't done much. (3) If you have hiring authority, or even if you just know someone who does, I'm happy to build something for you. I'm less happy to think of something to build myself. :/ As to the pre-questions, I don't have much of an opinion on startup vs non-startup, I'd prefer to be in the Bay Area, and my CV is, unfortunately, smaller than a breadbox. I'm apprehensive about moving somewhere just on spec; as a cousin post illustrates, that seems like a great way to exhaust all your cash and still not have a job. I'm only too happy to move for a job, since Santa Cruz could be charitably described as a "dead end". Please, anyone, email me: username at gmail
genwin 14y ago
Step 1 is moving to where the jobs are. Where depends on the skill; use job search engines (e.g. indeed.com) to find where. It is easy to get work with the right skill and location. Assuming you're young, you should have no problem if you do step 1.
tokenadult 14y ago
I'm now three years out of college, still trying to get a tech job (during the middle year, I was otherwise employed and not trying). My degree is a double major in CS / math My deepest sympathies about your job search. The "double major in computer science and mathematics" part of what you wrote sounds scary, as I have a large circle of acquaintance among young people who are pursuing similar studies. I don't have comprehensive information about how the general mass of such students is doing, but I'll relate a few anecdotes that may suggest some paths forward for you. Anecdote 1, a scary anecdote: A few years ago, that is BEFORE the financial system crash threw the world into recession, I had occasion to meet a young man who had been on his state's all-state mathematics team to compete in the ARML contest http://www.arml.com/ http://www.arml.com/ during high school. Rather than stay in-state for his computer science degree, he went to another state to attend its state university (presumably on financial grounds). The other state's state university is a Big Ten university that ought to have a decent reputation for its computer science department. But as I met this young man, he was four or five months out of college, and living in his parent's basement while still looking for work. Anecdote 2, a lot less scary: Another young person I know, nineteen years old (barely) just now, accelerated his high school studies by doing two years of dual enrollment (college studies as part of his high school program) with a grade skip or two thrown in besides. He did not participate in any formal mathematics competition programs. He then transfered to our state university as an advanced standing undergraduate, and finished up an undergraduate degree in computer science (with a few but not a lot of elective courses in mathematics beyond the computer science major requirements) before he was eighteen years old. Since he turned eighteen, he has been out on the west coast, and is now in Silicon Valley, telling many of his friends that there are a LOT of jobs for anyone who is a decent programmer. He programs for fun and has apparently always done well in his school programming assignments and in technical interviews. He is convinced that anyone who can get through a technical interview with coding work-sample testing can find a good job in Silicon Valley. Anecdotes 3-5: I know several other young people who got various summer internships during various phases of their recent undergraduate studies in computer science at various universities, and once they made a good impression on one company by their work in the internship, they started looking around at other possibilities around the country. All of the better job opportunities seem to use the research-based process of work sample tests as part of hiring. One young person I know who is in the job search phase just now while wrapping up a summer internship has had full-day technical interviews with multiple work-sample tests and discussion of each phase of the work samples after each test. It's gratifying to hear that some of the young people I know are getting to the second interview phase at multiple companies and some others have started career jobs at Google (if that's the kind of job they like) or at brand-new startups (if that is what they like). The crucial thing seems to be being able to do on the spot what industry jobs expect programmers to do. In the extreme case, people who can do that who haven't finished their college degree programs seem to be able to find career jobs. It doesn't sound like the degree as such is really the crucial hiring criterion in most places. Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people? It is possible to have strong development skills without years of full-time employment in career industry jobs if one does the right kind of recreational reading and takes on challenging programming tasks "for fun." I know a few such people. For them, where they went to college, what they majored in during college, and whether or not they finished college seem to be almost incidental details about their biographies. Good luck in your job search!
ericb 14y ago
If I were in your shoes, I'd either work on my own startup, or create some demo projects in a hot area like IOS or Rails. Register as a DBA (Doing Business As) and put your side project/startup as a job on your resume. Then put your resume up on monster.com. If you become proficient in an in-demand skill, jobs will find you. If the skill is hot enough, remote jobs will be available. Now you have to pass the interviews, but that is another matter. Note that you need to learn all the ancillary technologies to be a strong candidate (git, for example).
alinajaf 14y ago
> Is it, in your opinion, possible to have decent software development skills without years of experience under your belt? Do you meet many such people? This is going to sound mean, but have you considered doing entry-level programming jobs that aren't so great to get that experience? Digital agencies that don't know any better are always looking for people to build CRUD websites, and it's where a lot of other experienced developers I know cut their teeth. I don't know about the average programmer on HN, but most of my ability to deliver value to clients comes from the battle-scars and horror stories of working at not-so-great jobs, along with learning from the few exceptionally bright people I happened to be working alongside. You can't pick that up at university, via online tutorials or even dare I say it, by reading HN.
- thaumasiotes 14y ago
  Yes, of course I've considered that. Where would I apply? I've never tried to present myself as anything other than entry-level.
jedbrown 14y ago
Writing good libraries seems to take a reasonable amount of experience. Of course if you have been doing a significant amount of software as a student, you'll have a head start. My skills improved a great deal when I transitioned from one-off projects to research-driven projects (where the project lasts longer and requests for new capability appear as research progresses) and open source development. What sort of math background do you have? Any experience with numerical methods for PDEs, discrete optimization, uncertainty quantification, graph analysis? If you pick up an issue of SIAM J. Scientific Computing, J. Computational Physics, or Computer Methods in Applied Mechanics and Engineering, can you make some sense of the articles? Academic faculty and many senior industry research positions want to see PhD, but there are plenty of places just looking for a software person that "speaks the language". What sort of places have you tried applying? After years of going to research conferences and getting several offers at each one (despite not "looking"), knowing colleagues with unfilled positions, etc, I'm certain the demand exists.