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I do think it is sad that people are so out of touch with their bodies and the idea of self ownership that they need an authority figure to instruct such simple

I do think it is sad that people are so out of touch with their bodies and the idea of self ownership that they need an authority figure to instruct such simple tasks. I think there is a huge component of trained helplessness resulting from consumerist culture and social subservience.

thrw42A8N 2y ago
So how do you know to convince a person who doesn't feel it and yet needs it, without the research? If it's a treatment plan, it needs to have clear reasons behind.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Im not sure I understand your question. Who is trying to convince who? Ultimately, individuals are responsible for managing their own health. Thinking it is the doctors job and responsibility to keep them healthy, and not their own is the root of most problems.
  - thrw42A8N 2y ago
    How am I supposed to make informed decisions without the research? How is a doctor supposed to choose and present options without it?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I think that 99% of the bottleneck is not research for basic health, and the value of research is vastly over stated for things like nutrition, health, and exercise. A new study isn't going to convince people people to stop being obese, exercise, and take care of themselves. A study that shows that sleeping longer or eating a Mediterranean diet has a 5% improvement in some metric has almost no specificity to you. Research is important for the 1% of the time your health is already in crisis, When you are picking between medications or interventions after. Even then, personal data on what works for you should always trump the research, because it is statistical in nature, usually with extremely high variability. If drug A works 51% of the time drug B works 49% of the time, the difference between them is almost meaningless. You want to know which drug your body responds to. In the clinical context, I think people and doctors overvalue how much time and effort to spend figuring out where to start, and undervalue how much effort to spend responding to personal data if it works or not.
      - thrw42A8N 2y ago
        Yeah, sure. But this research is about treatment of serious injury, not about basic healthy life stuff.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        It is still pretty basic stuff. You shouldn't need a bunch of mouse studies to tell you to rest after a heart attack. The article is literally about the body's natural drive to rest and sleep so that it can heal after major injury.
        thrw42A8N 2y ago
        You need it to be sure that's a good thing, and to be able to evaluate and measure it. While not this time, we definitely did find out counterintuitive stuff in other research.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Sure, but that shouldn't paralyze your action in absence of detailed scientific data.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        > the value of research is vastly over stated for things like nutrition, health, and exercise. Well said! People talk as if all empirical health practices that different cultures all over the world have developed are worthless without "modern research" while the researchers themselves are looking at it for inspiration and study.
        thrw42A8N 2y ago
        Who talks like that? Yes, researchers want to know why the empirically developed practices work. That's a great thing in my book.
rramadass 2y ago
> I think there is a huge component of trained helplessness resulting from consumerist culture and social subservience. Very True. For example, when i ask people why they need that huge cup of starbucks coffee in the morning i get every excuse but the truth that they have been conditioned by the environment and the body has maladjusted to it so that they are in a downward health spiral.

thrw42A8N 2y ago

So how do you know to convince a person who doesn't feel it and yet needs it, without the research? If it's a treatment plan, it needs to have clear reasons behind.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Im not sure I understand your question. Who is trying to convince who? Ultimately, individuals are responsible for managing their own health. Thinking it is the doctors job and responsibility to keep them healthy, and not their own is the root of most problems.
- thrw42A8N 2y ago
  How am I supposed to make informed decisions without the research? How is a doctor supposed to choose and present options without it?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think that 99% of the bottleneck is not research for basic health, and the value of research is vastly over stated for things like nutrition, health, and exercise. A new study isn't going to convince people people to stop being obese, exercise, and take care of themselves. A study that shows that sleeping longer or eating a Mediterranean diet has a 5% improvement in some metric has almost no specificity to you. Research is important for the 1% of the time your health is already in crisis, When you are picking between medications or interventions after. Even then, personal data on what works for you should always trump the research, because it is statistical in nature, usually with extremely high variability. If drug A works 51% of the time drug B works 49% of the time, the difference between them is almost meaningless. You want to know which drug your body responds to. In the clinical context, I think people and doctors overvalue how much time and effort to spend figuring out where to start, and undervalue how much effort to spend responding to personal data if it works or not.
    - thrw42A8N 2y ago
      Yeah, sure. But this research is about treatment of serious injury, not about basic healthy life stuff.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        It is still pretty basic stuff. You shouldn't need a bunch of mouse studies to tell you to rest after a heart attack. The article is literally about the body's natural drive to rest and sleep so that it can heal after major injury.
        thrw42A8N 2y ago
        You need it to be sure that's a good thing, and to be able to evaluate and measure it. While not this time, we definitely did find out counterintuitive stuff in other research.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Sure, but that shouldn't paralyze your action in absence of detailed scientific data.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      > the value of research is vastly over stated for things like nutrition, health, and exercise. Well said! People talk as if all empirical health practices that different cultures all over the world have developed are worthless without "modern research" while the researchers themselves are looking at it for inspiration and study.
      - thrw42A8N 2y ago
        Who talks like that? Yes, researchers want to know why the empirically developed practices work. That's a great thing in my book.

rramadass 2y ago

> I think there is a huge component of trained helplessness resulting from consumerist culture and social subservience. Very True. For example, when i ask people why they need that huge cup of starbucks coffee in the morning i get every excuse but the truth that they have been conditioned by the environment and the body has maladjusted to it so that they are in a downward health spiral.