5 ms·

Ah! So step 2 is wait for the spammers to automate blacklisting of Daisy phone numbers, and only then start rolling out a (paid) Daisy option to customers. Not

by axus 2y ago

Ah! So step 2 is wait for the spammers to automate blacklisting of Daisy phone numbers, and only then start rolling out a (paid) Daisy option to customers. Not connecting calls doesn't waste spammer money, but maybe Daisy does. If the big telco can find 10 righteous callers from a a bad actor telecom, they should keep routing the calls.

ttul 2y ago
My friend works for a big telco and is the guy fixing this problem for them. They have amazing powers of deception when they need it. New numbers can be conjured up at any time.
- simfree 2y ago
  The new fad among wireless carriers here in the US is to route what they think are spam calls to a fake voicemail box. Voicemail that is left in this generic voice mail box never makes it to their customer and the customer is completely unaware that some of their calls have been diverted.
  - jollyllama 2y ago
    Wow. There should be a way to opt out of this, at least. Isn't this a violation of common carrier laws?
  - immibis 2y ago
    Then suddenly, calls from consenting callers to consenting receivers are labeled as spam and blocked. What can you do about it? Nothing. Switch to email, I guess. Oh wait, same problem.
    - kabdib 2y ago
      reductio ad absurdum: we're back to Pony Express
      - telgareith 2y ago
        Simple: shoot the messenger.
      - immibis 2y ago
        I called out email because email actually has this problem. It's not reductio ad absurdum if it's true.
      - connicpu 2y ago
        Bulk scams by mail are at least less common because mail fraud is investigated pretty seriously and results in federal felony charges. Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher. Unfortunately individuals are still sometimes targeted.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        > Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher This is the thing we screwed up for email and phone (after per call fees dropped to zero). It's not rocket science to create systems that net to zero for common usage (balanced in-bound vs out-bound), but charge an arm and a leg for bulk senders.
        immibis 2y ago
        Until you're running a file server or the equivalent. There has to be some way for a willing recipient to zero-rate or reverse-charge the responses to their requests. The Internet gets this wrong.
        plagiarist 2y ago
        The physical mail spammers know to only use deceptive tricks, like "FINAL NOTICE" or pretending to be affiliated with you using some publicly available information. I have not yet seen one dare to full-on lie, because there would be real consequences. If a scammer puts "FINAL NOTICE" on a solicitation they mailed with no prior relationship, I do still report it as fraud. But that's probably wishful thinking.
      - 2y ago
    - efitz 2y ago
      You sound like an advocate for telemarketers. Am I correct? I doubt very seriously that the pool of people who have knowingly and intentionally and explicitly opted in/consented to telemarketing - that is, without any dark pattern involvement and with a clear and unmbiguous consent experience, is very large. In fact I think it is infinitesimal because I can’t recall seeing such a consent UX- they ALL involve dark patterns. And if you pair that with “marketer who diligently implements all state & FTC requirements and does timely and accurate processing of removal requests, I think that the 3 relationships left are web app UX testers. I think the world would be a better place without telemarketing or email marketing. Maybe a “one email per year” limit per merchant who you have actually paid money to and not opted out of.
      - gbear605 2y ago
        I’m not OP, but my worry is about the false positives. I have real inbound calls and emails getting detected as spam all the time. Luckily my VoIP provider has a spam box I can look in, but at this point I just have to go through them every so often to make sure I’m not missing anything important. If the telecoms can perfectly predict the telemarketers, then I’d love it. But in practice how often is this going to block people I know from calling me? Probably not never, and then we just have to give up on phones as a reliable method of communication.
        spacebanana7 2y ago
        Exactly. Many people want to be able to receive phone calls from their doctors, airlines and schools. These types of B2C calls are presumably most likely to be marked as spam in the event of false positives.
    - EasyMark 2y ago
      I’ll take my chances. 99%of the people I want to talk to either email/text me first or are already in my contacts list (which I’m not really all that picky about). I’ll accept that failure rate.
      - akoboldfrying 2y ago
        Isn't "emailing you first" just kicking the can down the road? What stops spam emails getting through to you? (Besides the exact kind of heuristic filtering you seem to be objecting to, that is.)
        spacebanana7 2y ago
        Email spam filters have the advantage of being able to see the content of the message, so hopefully they're more accurate. The disadvantage of email is that it doesn't work for urgent use cases, like Disneyland calling the parent of a lost child.
        red-iron-pine 2y ago
        Disneyland will have a handful of IPs and phone numbers, and I'd bet my hat will have a team aggressively calling any ISP or provider that flags them as spam.
      - BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Even better : ignore unknown numbers, real unknown people can leave voicemail. (Hopefully leaving voicemail keeps out of reach of spammers, I guess it's just too expensive for them ?)
  - connicpu 2y ago
    Not sure about all carriers, but on mine I still get a push notification when a call gets blocked blocked by the spam filter.
  - D-Coder 2y ago
    Sounds like a shadow-ban.
- neilalexander 2y ago
  Better yet, route all calls for all disconnected/unassigned numbers in their part of the numbering plan to it. It would probably kill robocalling overnight.
  - connicpu 2y ago
    Who tells them the number is disconnected? That would have to come from the shady carrier enabling this stuff.
- worthless-trash 2y ago
  I hate to say this.. but I find this very difficult to believe.. I don't think any telco puts effort into stopping spammers.. I'd like them to but I don't think it's something they either can care or legally capable of fixing.
  - Anamon 2y ago
    I work for a telco, though not in that department. We put a lot of effort into trying to block spam calls, and adapting systems to the newest tricks. The reason why the results aren't better is (I'm being told) a combination between IP telephony making reliable source tracing all but impossible, and common carrier laws which mean that you can't block a call unless you're 100% certain it's a scam, otherwise you open yourself up to being sued.
    - worthless-trash 2y ago
      I imagine that many of us would gladly accept blocking call with a much lower certainty. Maybe we need an audio catcha. Thank you for the insight.
ensignavenger 2y ago
Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers. This way, there is a constant flow of spammer free numbers being cycled into the pool. Of course, everyone and their dog wants your phone number, so you will have to be careful who you give it to if you want it to stay spam-free.
- ronsor 2y ago
  > Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers. This is actually genius. The spammers will have blacklisted all of their targets eventually.
  - lhamil64 2y ago
    Until they catch on and un-blacklist the numbers periodically.
    - Szpadel 2y ago
      we all know the end game: ai scammer talking to ai granny
      - flir 2y ago
        As long as the scammer's paying to route the call, I'm ok with this. And the telcos' fitness function for their pool of robogrannies should be time-spent-on-call. Making it uneconomic is the way to kill it.
      - dools 2y ago
        AI Guilfoyle and AI Dinesh
      - etlabaume 2y ago
        Half of the spam calls I get today are AI. And I get more or less one spam call a day.
carlosjobim 2y ago
> If the big telco can find 10 righteous callers from a a bad actor telecom, they should keep routing the calls. Why?

by axus 2y ago

ttul 2y ago

My friend works for a big telco and is the guy fixing this problem for them. They have amazing powers of deception when they need it. New numbers can be conjured up at any time.

simfree 2y ago
The new fad among wireless carriers here in the US is to route what they think are spam calls to a fake voicemail box. Voicemail that is left in this generic voice mail box never makes it to their customer and the customer is completely unaware that some of their calls have been diverted.
- jollyllama 2y ago
  Wow. There should be a way to opt out of this, at least. Isn't this a violation of common carrier laws?
- immibis 2y ago
  Then suddenly, calls from consenting callers to consenting receivers are labeled as spam and blocked. What can you do about it? Nothing. Switch to email, I guess. Oh wait, same problem.
  - kabdib 2y ago
    reductio ad absurdum: we're back to Pony Express
    - telgareith 2y ago
      Simple: shoot the messenger.
    - immibis 2y ago
      I called out email because email actually has this problem. It's not reductio ad absurdum if it's true.
    - connicpu 2y ago
      Bulk scams by mail are at least less common because mail fraud is investigated pretty seriously and results in federal felony charges. Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher. Unfortunately individuals are still sometimes targeted.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        > Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher This is the thing we screwed up for email and phone (after per call fees dropped to zero). It's not rocket science to create systems that net to zero for common usage (balanced in-bound vs out-bound), but charge an arm and a leg for bulk senders.
        immibis 2y ago
        Until you're running a file server or the equivalent. There has to be some way for a willing recipient to zero-rate or reverse-charge the responses to their requests. The Internet gets this wrong.
      - plagiarist 2y ago
        The physical mail spammers know to only use deceptive tricks, like "FINAL NOTICE" or pretending to be affiliated with you using some publicly available information. I have not yet seen one dare to full-on lie, because there would be real consequences. If a scammer puts "FINAL NOTICE" on a solicitation they mailed with no prior relationship, I do still report it as fraud. But that's probably wishful thinking.
    - 2y ago
  - efitz 2y ago
    You sound like an advocate for telemarketers. Am I correct? I doubt very seriously that the pool of people who have knowingly and intentionally and explicitly opted in/consented to telemarketing - that is, without any dark pattern involvement and with a clear and unmbiguous consent experience, is very large. In fact I think it is infinitesimal because I can’t recall seeing such a consent UX- they ALL involve dark patterns. And if you pair that with “marketer who diligently implements all state & FTC requirements and does timely and accurate processing of removal requests, I think that the 3 relationships left are web app UX testers. I think the world would be a better place without telemarketing or email marketing. Maybe a “one email per year” limit per merchant who you have actually paid money to and not opted out of.
    - gbear605 2y ago
      I’m not OP, but my worry is about the false positives. I have real inbound calls and emails getting detected as spam all the time. Luckily my VoIP provider has a spam box I can look in, but at this point I just have to go through them every so often to make sure I’m not missing anything important. If the telecoms can perfectly predict the telemarketers, then I’d love it. But in practice how often is this going to block people I know from calling me? Probably not never, and then we just have to give up on phones as a reliable method of communication.
      - spacebanana7 2y ago
        Exactly. Many people want to be able to receive phone calls from their doctors, airlines and schools. These types of B2C calls are presumably most likely to be marked as spam in the event of false positives.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    I’ll take my chances. 99%of the people I want to talk to either email/text me first or are already in my contacts list (which I’m not really all that picky about). I’ll accept that failure rate.
    - akoboldfrying 2y ago
      Isn't "emailing you first" just kicking the can down the road? What stops spam emails getting through to you? (Besides the exact kind of heuristic filtering you seem to be objecting to, that is.)
      - spacebanana7 2y ago
        Email spam filters have the advantage of being able to see the content of the message, so hopefully they're more accurate. The disadvantage of email is that it doesn't work for urgent use cases, like Disneyland calling the parent of a lost child.
        red-iron-pine 2y ago
        Disneyland will have a handful of IPs and phone numbers, and I'd bet my hat will have a team aggressively calling any ISP or provider that flags them as spam.
    - BlueTemplar 2y ago
      Even better : ignore unknown numbers, real unknown people can leave voicemail. (Hopefully leaving voicemail keeps out of reach of spammers, I guess it's just too expensive for them ?)
- connicpu 2y ago
  Not sure about all carriers, but on mine I still get a push notification when a call gets blocked blocked by the spam filter.
- D-Coder 2y ago
  Sounds like a shadow-ban.
neilalexander 2y ago
Better yet, route all calls for all disconnected/unassigned numbers in their part of the numbering plan to it. It would probably kill robocalling overnight.
- connicpu 2y ago
  Who tells them the number is disconnected? That would have to come from the shady carrier enabling this stuff.
worthless-trash 2y ago
I hate to say this.. but I find this very difficult to believe.. I don't think any telco puts effort into stopping spammers.. I'd like them to but I don't think it's something they either can care or legally capable of fixing.
- Anamon 2y ago
  I work for a telco, though not in that department. We put a lot of effort into trying to block spam calls, and adapting systems to the newest tricks. The reason why the results aren't better is (I'm being told) a combination between IP telephony making reliable source tracing all but impossible, and common carrier laws which mean that you can't block a call unless you're 100% certain it's a scam, otherwise you open yourself up to being sued.
  - worthless-trash 2y ago
    I imagine that many of us would gladly accept blocking call with a much lower certainty. Maybe we need an audio catcha. Thank you for the insight.

ensignavenger 2y ago

Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers. This way, there is a constant flow of spammer free numbers being cycled into the pool. Of course, everyone and their dog wants your phone number, so you will have to be careful who you give it to if you want it to stay spam-free.

ronsor 2y ago
> Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers. This is actually genius. The spammers will have blacklisted all of their targets eventually.
- lhamil64 2y ago
  Until they catch on and un-blacklist the numbers periodically.
  - Szpadel 2y ago
    we all know the end game: ai scammer talking to ai granny
    - flir 2y ago
      As long as the scammer's paying to route the call, I'm ok with this. And the telcos' fitness function for their pool of robogrannies should be time-spent-on-call. Making it uneconomic is the way to kill it.
    - dools 2y ago
      AI Guilfoyle and AI Dinesh
    - etlabaume 2y ago
      Half of the spam calls I get today are AI. And I get more or less one spam call a day.

carlosjobim 2y ago

> If the big telco can find 10 righteous callers from a a bad actor telecom, they should keep routing the calls. Why?