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I suspect the latter part is so commonplace that many technologists don't even think twice about it. > Unilaterally imposing unfair trading conditions on other

I suspect the latter part is so commonplace that many technologists don't even think twice about it. > Unilaterally imposing unfair trading conditions on other online classified ads service providers who advertise on Meta's platforms, in particular on its very popular social networks Facebook and Instagram. This allows Meta to use ads-related data generated by other advertisers for the sole benefit of Facebook Marketplace. Consider this: - A local marketplace AcmeShop wants to advertise itself on Facebook, paying Facebook for ads. - The only practical way to do so requires AcmeShop to install Facebook's tracking on their website. The tracking is always dual purpose: on the one hand, it gives AcmeShop data on conversion from their ads (which is vital for AcmeShop), but on the other it also gives Facebook data about AcmeShop users. - Alice wants to buy a used 3D printer. She goes to AcmeShop, searches for 3D printers, checks a few listings out, but doesn't buy anything. - Alice opens Facebook. At this point, Facebook registered Alice's visit to AcmeShop 3D printer listings, so of course they serve ads for 3D printers selling on Facebook Marketplace. - Alice buys a used 3D printer from Facebook Marketplace, cutting AcmeShop out. AcmeShop has a tough choice: they either advertise on Facebook, pay Facebook, and help Facebook to undermine their own business, or they forgo Facebook as a marketing channel altogether. Usually different parts of this scenario are discussed in isolation (performance marketing, user tracking, privacy on Facebook, etc.), obscuring the larger picture. I don't see how Facebook's behaviour taken as a whole is anything but predatory and abusive of their position.

olliebrkr 2y ago
It's 100% predatory. I hope we will see similar cases brought against Amazon soon (if they haven't been already). The fact that so many companies are dependent on selling on Amazon, yet Amazon also sells their own products, is ludicrous. - AcmeShop sells 3d printers and sell on Amazon - Amazon sees these printers are selling well - Amazon buys/creates their own 3d printer brand - Amazon gives their own products preferencial treatment and uses all it's data for how AcmeShop's printers are selling to undercut them in all markets - AcmeShop goes out of business because unaware consumers buy what, on the surface, is a better deal - With no competition Amazon increases it's prices to whatever it likes
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Is Amazon able to make a better value 3d printer? If yes, seems like consumers win? If no, then people will lose trust on Amazon over time and will use other shopping platforms. So Amazon is basically trading short-term profit for long-term profit.
  - olliebrkr 2y ago
    Consumers win when there is continued competition. Short term, sure, consumers get a better printer, but once Amazon has taken over the market where is the drive to make anything better or cheaper? It's competition 101.. I think a lot of American's have lost trust in AT&T, Time Warner Cable, but it doesn't meant they're not forced to use them. If you control the pipes you should not be allowed to also sell the water in those pipes. You will always be in a far greater position to take advantage and become a monopoly, which, is well documented, hurts consumers.
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    Aww... have you ever heard about price dumping to kill the competition? Kindle would be a good example here :D
- aga98mtl 2y ago
  Every big retailer has its own house brand. There is nothing special about a big retailer using their sales data to make decisions on house branding. No they cannot adjust their pricing to whatever they like because Amazon is not a monopoly. People can buy stuff elsewhere. If Amazon pricing is bad, people will leave and it will kill Amazon.
crazygringo 2y ago
Can you clarify the abusive part? In your scenario, Alice already decided not to buy anything from AcmeShop. Even if AcmeShop advertised on Facebook it wouldn't have changed her behavior. She got a better deal on Facebook Marketplace. And she was already visiting Facebook and the Marketplace is already a single click. I don't see the abusive or predatory part. It seems like Facebook Marketplace just offered a superior used 3D printer for her. So what part am I missing?
- olliebrkr 2y ago
  It's one sided. Facebook have all the data for how AcmeShop's products are selling. They are free to use this information to undercut AcmeShop's products with data AcmeShop does not have on Facebook. Yes, it's a better deal on the face of it, but as soon as AcmeShop goes out of business, competition is gone and Facebook can charge whatever they want. And we all know from the US markets that low to no competition does not benefit the consumer in any way.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    None of this makes any sense. Facebook Marketplace is a marketplace. They don't control the products that are being advertised. All they can control is the weighting of ads they run on certain products e.g. "AirPods are popular, increase ad spend to 20% of total". But they could do this by simply optimising for ROAS just like every other company does. If Facebook is sharing AcmeShop data with Marketplace, and it's a very big if, it would still be of almost no value.
    - dgroshev 2y ago
      They don't control the products that are being advertised, but they make personalised ads for Marketplace products more effective by using data they collect elsewhere. If the ads are more effective, Marketplace is better at shifting goods, undermining the competition because their competition is forced to share data with Facebook through Facebook's (not Marketplace's) market position.
  - 2y ago
threeseed 2y ago
But this is how online advertising works. AcmeShop can equally run ads on other companies 3D printers on Facebook. And they can equally run ads on Google about Facebook Marketplace.
- dgroshev 2y ago
  "Normal" online advertising is neutral with respect to companies bidding on placements. Not so much with Facebook, which is under no obligation to run a bid on every ad they serve. Some of those ads are dedicated Marketplace ads, and AcmeShop can't bid on them, or even limit access to the data that Facebook collected while performing their contractual duties to AcmeShop.

olliebrkr 2y ago

It's 100% predatory. I hope we will see similar cases brought against Amazon soon (if they haven't been already). The fact that so many companies are dependent on selling on Amazon, yet Amazon also sells their own products, is ludicrous. - AcmeShop sells 3d printers and sell on Amazon - Amazon sees these printers are selling well - Amazon buys/creates their own 3d printer brand - Amazon gives their own products preferencial treatment and uses all it's data for how AcmeShop's printers are selling to undercut them in all markets - AcmeShop goes out of business because unaware consumers buy what, on the surface, is a better deal - With no competition Amazon increases it's prices to whatever it likes

aurareturn 2y ago
Is Amazon able to make a better value 3d printer? If yes, seems like consumers win? If no, then people will lose trust on Amazon over time and will use other shopping platforms. So Amazon is basically trading short-term profit for long-term profit.
- olliebrkr 2y ago
  Consumers win when there is continued competition. Short term, sure, consumers get a better printer, but once Amazon has taken over the market where is the drive to make anything better or cheaper? It's competition 101.. I think a lot of American's have lost trust in AT&T, Time Warner Cable, but it doesn't meant they're not forced to use them. If you control the pipes you should not be allowed to also sell the water in those pipes. You will always be in a far greater position to take advantage and become a monopoly, which, is well documented, hurts consumers.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  Aww... have you ever heard about price dumping to kill the competition? Kindle would be a good example here :D
aga98mtl 2y ago
Every big retailer has its own house brand. There is nothing special about a big retailer using their sales data to make decisions on house branding. No they cannot adjust their pricing to whatever they like because Amazon is not a monopoly. People can buy stuff elsewhere. If Amazon pricing is bad, people will leave and it will kill Amazon.

crazygringo 2y ago

Can you clarify the abusive part? In your scenario, Alice already decided not to buy anything from AcmeShop. Even if AcmeShop advertised on Facebook it wouldn't have changed her behavior. She got a better deal on Facebook Marketplace. And she was already visiting Facebook and the Marketplace is already a single click. I don't see the abusive or predatory part. It seems like Facebook Marketplace just offered a superior used 3D printer for her. So what part am I missing?

olliebrkr 2y ago
It's one sided. Facebook have all the data for how AcmeShop's products are selling. They are free to use this information to undercut AcmeShop's products with data AcmeShop does not have on Facebook. Yes, it's a better deal on the face of it, but as soon as AcmeShop goes out of business, competition is gone and Facebook can charge whatever they want. And we all know from the US markets that low to no competition does not benefit the consumer in any way.
- threeseed 2y ago
  None of this makes any sense. Facebook Marketplace is a marketplace. They don't control the products that are being advertised. All they can control is the weighting of ads they run on certain products e.g. "AirPods are popular, increase ad spend to 20% of total". But they could do this by simply optimising for ROAS just like every other company does. If Facebook is sharing AcmeShop data with Marketplace, and it's a very big if, it would still be of almost no value.
  - dgroshev 2y ago
    They don't control the products that are being advertised, but they make personalised ads for Marketplace products more effective by using data they collect elsewhere. If the ads are more effective, Marketplace is better at shifting goods, undermining the competition because their competition is forced to share data with Facebook through Facebook's (not Marketplace's) market position.
- 2y ago

threeseed 2y ago

But this is how online advertising works. AcmeShop can equally run ads on other companies 3D printers on Facebook. And they can equally run ads on Google about Facebook Marketplace.

dgroshev 2y ago
"Normal" online advertising is neutral with respect to companies bidding on placements. Not so much with Facebook, which is under no obligation to run a bid on every ad they serve. Some of those ads are dedicated Marketplace ads, and AcmeShop can't bid on them, or even limit access to the data that Facebook collected while performing their contractual duties to AcmeShop.