4 ms·

Is there any evidence H1B workers in tech have lowered wages? I have only seen anecdotes while the law explicitly states H1Bs should be paid the prevailing wag

Is there any evidence H1B workers in tech have lowered wages? I have only seen anecdotes while the law explicitly states H1Bs should be paid the prevailing wage or above.

hollerith 2y ago
It's what I would naturally expect to happen in the absence of consistent heroic efforts by the authorities to prevent it.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  If that is happening widely, surely there will be some data to support that right? Authorities do enforce H1B provisions proactively. https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-fraud/combating-fraud-and-abuse-in-the-h-1b-visa-program https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-frau... https://cis.org/North/Apple-Hit-25-Million-Penalty-Favoring-H1B-Workers-over-Citizens https://cis.org/North/Apple-Hit-25-Million-Penalty-Favoring-... https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/06/h-1b-visa-fraud-leads-to-third-guilty-plea-santa-clara-business-owner/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/06/h-1b-visa-fraud-leads... > absence of consistent heroic efforts Will that apply to every law in society or just to H1B laws? Despite absence of consistent heroic efforts, we don't see widespread criminal activities.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hollerith 2y ago
    You seem to be genuinely curious, which is commendable. >Will that apply to every law in society or just to H1B laws? The H1B laws are harder to enforce than most laws -- or so it would seem to me -- because the question of whether there are Americans that are able to do a particular job at a particular workplace depends on many fiddly details that only the managers of the particular workplace (the prospective defendant in any enforcement action) would know. When lawyers working on Capitol Hill are serious about stamping out a behavior, they write laws that are easy to enforce (unambiguous, not relying much on human judgment). Something as vague as, "as long as there are no Americans qualified to do the job," suggests that whoever wrote that just wants to reassure critics of the H1B program without caring much whether H1B workers actually displace American workers.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      > The H1B laws are harder to enforce than most laws -- or so it would seem to me Most laws are like this. Do you know criminality laws require intent and yet we do fine without mind reading devices. Most H1Bs are in software and wages in software have been rising along with number of people in software engineering over the long term.
- derektank 2y ago
  This is the lump of labor fallacy. People are both consumers and laborers; by bringing someone new into a labor market you marginally decrease demand for their skill set but you also marginally increase demand for all other labor. If H1-B visa holders all worked in the same industry, it could conceivably lower wages in that industry but they don't. They work in everything from healthcare, to IT, to education.
  - ahi 2y ago
    66% of H1-B approvals are in computer related positions. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/OLA_Signed_H-1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2022.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/OLA_...
calculatte 2y ago
Look up that "prevailing wage". It's a deep discount compared to the real world. Minimum for a Software Developer in SF: $113,444 https://h1bgrader.com/ https://h1bgrader.com/
- lupire 2y ago
  What do you think that is wrong? H1B devs at FAANG companies are paid far more.
  - calculatte 2y ago
    The same FAANG companies found guilty of depressing wages through collusion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... Your question is why is it wrong to depress wages? Yeah, really tough question. Now consider OPT visa workers which are being paid even less, plus companies get an extra 8-10% discount because they don't have to pay Social Security and Medicare. There is no shortage of skilled workers here. Only corporate greed.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  Define “real world” and how it differs from actual data used to compute the prevailing wage.
programmertote 2y ago
Just speaking from my experience -- if the company is a big corp, usually the wages follow average market rates (I was paid market average wage in a top advertising corp in the world and I got my green card there in 6-7 years). Bureau of Labor Statistics puts out average market rates for each job category and the H1B sponsor has to match or pay above that to get the H1B application approved. I was also checking out my market rates (i.e., applying for other companies that allows H1B transfer) constantly during my H1B time because I can move to another job if my current company was paying me lower than average wages. On the other hand, for some shady companies that are set up as contract shops, then I'd not be surprised if the wages are lower than average market rate, but I have never worked at one, so I might be misleading by even mentioning this here.

Is there any evidence H1B workers in tech have lowered wages? I have only seen anecdotes while the law explicitly states H1Bs should be paid the prevailing wage or above.

hollerith 2y ago

It's what I would naturally expect to happen in the absence of consistent heroic efforts by the authorities to prevent it.

cscurmudgeon 2y ago
If that is happening widely, surely there will be some data to support that right? Authorities do enforce H1B provisions proactively. https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-fraud/combating-fraud-and-abuse-in-the-h-1b-visa-program https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-frau... https://cis.org/North/Apple-Hit-25-Million-Penalty-Favoring-H1B-Workers-over-Citizens https://cis.org/North/Apple-Hit-25-Million-Penalty-Favoring-... https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/06/h-1b-visa-fraud-leads-to-third-guilty-plea-santa-clara-business-owner/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/06/h-1b-visa-fraud-leads... > absence of consistent heroic efforts Will that apply to every law in society or just to H1B laws? Despite absence of consistent heroic efforts, we don't see widespread criminal activities.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hollerith 2y ago
  You seem to be genuinely curious, which is commendable. >Will that apply to every law in society or just to H1B laws? The H1B laws are harder to enforce than most laws -- or so it would seem to me -- because the question of whether there are Americans that are able to do a particular job at a particular workplace depends on many fiddly details that only the managers of the particular workplace (the prospective defendant in any enforcement action) would know. When lawyers working on Capitol Hill are serious about stamping out a behavior, they write laws that are easy to enforce (unambiguous, not relying much on human judgment). Something as vague as, "as long as there are no Americans qualified to do the job," suggests that whoever wrote that just wants to reassure critics of the H1B program without caring much whether H1B workers actually displace American workers.
  - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
    > The H1B laws are harder to enforce than most laws -- or so it would seem to me Most laws are like this. Do you know criminality laws require intent and yet we do fine without mind reading devices. Most H1Bs are in software and wages in software have been rising along with number of people in software engineering over the long term.
derektank 2y ago
This is the lump of labor fallacy. People are both consumers and laborers; by bringing someone new into a labor market you marginally decrease demand for their skill set but you also marginally increase demand for all other labor. If H1-B visa holders all worked in the same industry, it could conceivably lower wages in that industry but they don't. They work in everything from healthcare, to IT, to education.
- ahi 2y ago
  66% of H1-B approvals are in computer related positions. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/OLA_Signed_H-1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2022.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/OLA_...

calculatte 2y ago

Look up that "prevailing wage". It's a deep discount compared to the real world. Minimum for a Software Developer in SF: $113,444 https://h1bgrader.com/ https://h1bgrader.com/

lupire 2y ago
What do you think that is wrong? H1B devs at FAANG companies are paid far more.
- calculatte 2y ago
  The same FAANG companies found guilty of depressing wages through collusion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... Your question is why is it wrong to depress wages? Yeah, really tough question. Now consider OPT visa workers which are being paid even less, plus companies get an extra 8-10% discount because they don't have to pay Social Security and Medicare. There is no shortage of skilled workers here. Only corporate greed.
cscurmudgeon 2y ago
Define “real world” and how it differs from actual data used to compute the prevailing wage.

programmertote 2y ago

Just speaking from my experience -- if the company is a big corp, usually the wages follow average market rates (I was paid market average wage in a top advertising corp in the world and I got my green card there in 6-7 years). Bureau of Labor Statistics puts out average market rates for each job category and the H1B sponsor has to match or pay above that to get the H1B application approved. I was also checking out my market rates (i.e., applying for other companies that allows H1B transfer) constantly during my H1B time because I can move to another job if my current company was paying me lower than average wages. On the other hand, for some shady companies that are set up as contract shops, then I'd not be surprised if the wages are lower than average market rate, but I have never worked at one, so I might be misleading by even mentioning this here.