5 ms·

It seems to me that the idea of marrying someone you want is a human right is nothing more than projecting our cultural preferences out to the rest of the world

by ktizo 14y ago

It seems to me that the idea of marrying someone you want is a human right is nothing more than projecting our cultural preferences out to the rest of the world. Being forced to spend your life with someone who you don't want, is far more of an imposition than that of an organisation publicly stating that they think it would be nice if people were allowed to marry who they do want. [edit] Also, that position in general, regardless of topic, is unsound. If projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, then all I have to do is claim to belong to a culture that finds it deeply offensive for people to claim that projecting cultural preferences is bad, and then anyone who holds the first position isn't even allowed to tell me about it, entirely by their own argument. Personally I have little faith with philosophical positions that are that easy to catch out.

einhverfr 14y ago
Gosh darn those crazy Japs! Even after we bring them our enlightened laws their families insist on keeping their arranged marriages! Seriously though.... At some point the structure of marriage and how it fits into society is a matter only for the people of that society, not a matter for outsiders. Regarding gay marriage, also consider this: In many parts of the world, adoption is relatively rare, and the entire retirement support program is moving in with one's kids. This means marriage in most parts of the world is socially tied to procreation. This also means that gay marriage may be a bit of an economic luxury made possible by 401(k)'s and spermbanks..... We can afford that in the US. How sure are we that we want to push this on other parts of the world?
- ktizo 14y ago
  At some point the structure of marriage and how it fits into society is a matter only for the people of that society, not a matter for outsiders. There are no outsiders. While you were away we found out that people from different cultures have been shagging all along and that we are all related (which should please mr incest at the bottom of the thread), and that all societies are deeply interconnected at every level. Thanks for worrying about the retirement plans of impoverished homosexuals though, without people like you making sure they behaved responsibly and bred, who knows where they might end up in later life.
  - einhverfr 14y ago
    But there are outsiders. We all have social circles and societies of structures. My ancestors may have come over here from various places in Europe but I am still an outsider to where my ancestors may have been from. This is why I far prefer the company of anthropologists to human rights activists. I suppose though we can take this further. There are aboriginal tribes in Polynesia which engage in rituals where boys (presumably in early adolescence) become men by giving tribal elders fellatio. After all, I suppose, you are what you eat. We don't have to prove that this is harmful, since we can just claim it's child abuse.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      As far as your preference of company, I don't think that human rights activism and anthropology are particularly mutually exclusive. But on your other point, it is one thing to dispassionately note the behaviours of others, however this does not preclude having an opinion or forming a personal moral judgement on those behaviours. And if you have formed a moral judgement on a behaviour then it is perfectly ok to express your opinion, even if the people you are judging are far away or long dead. Everyone judges everyone, all the time, and this is not a terrible imposition that should be stopped, but rather is the main mechanism of social evolution throughout history.
      - einhverfr 14y ago
        But on your other point, it is one thing to dispassionately note the behaviours of others, however this does not preclude having an opinion or forming a personal moral judgement on those behaviours. I think it does preclude taking a very broad line though, and studying the constructs and how a culture fits together tends to make folks a lot less prone to advocacy. This doesn't mean that criticism of another culture is out of the question--- there is a lot of great cultural criticism that comes out of this. Examples that come readily to mind include criticisms of our (in the US) trust that Obstetrics is better than Midwifery (statistically, midwifery has better outcomes on the whole, and this is optimized when midwives are the primary care providers for all lower-risk pregnancies and childbirths), criticism of how the Morroccan henna first-marriage ceremonies entrench patriarchy, and more. But these are very detail-oriented criticisms which tend to address specific cultures, and look at them in ways which are very detail-oriented. Even the anthropologists who have criticized things like female genital cutting in Sudan have tended to note carefully how it fits into culture, and tended to avoid the inflammatory activist rhetoric (and in many cases argued even more forcefully against being overly activist on the issue). You will probably never see an anthropologist endorse a global campaign like this, because the sorts of thinking are very different. So you are right, it doesn't preclude an opinion of the way a specific culture does things. But it does seem to preclude arguments based on natural rights. BTW, great book on this topic, which over and over addresses questions of criticism of other cultures and its place in anthropology: "Deeply Into the Bone: Re-Inventing Rites of Passage" by Ronald Grimes. To say it is inspired by van Gennep's classic anthropological work "The Rites of Passage" would be an understatement. Edit: To the downvoters: One of the reasons why broad lines are usually avoided is that dynamics are rarely simple. For example, in Africa, you have long-standing patterns of European meddling in local cultures, and consequently large-scale activism from the West against female genital cutting more or less frames that practice as one of nationalist resistance.
batista 14y ago
>Being forced to spend your life with someone who you don't want, is far more of an imposition than that of an organisation publicly stating that they think it would be nice if people were allowed to marry who they do want. Thats what you say after 200K hollywood movies and romantic novels, which is another form on imposition. Is what you say good for society in general? Is it even better for the persons involved? If you answer yes without hesitation, you should question how much of your thinking has been shaped by the prevalent ideology on your country. >If projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, then all I have to do is claim to belong to a culture that finds it deeply offensive for people to claim that projecting cultural preferences is bad, and then anyone who holds the first position isn't even allowed to tell me about it, entirely by their own argument. For one, that would be a fake culture (the one youll claim o belong to). Cultures are made by populations, not a random guy. Second, the workaround is bs. Here's another version: "projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, period, even if its acceptable in your culture".
- ktizo 14y ago
  Thats what you say after 200K hollywood movies and romantic novels Japanese cartoons and classic sci-fi, mostly. I don't really like hollywood, or romance novels. Is what you say good for society in general? Is it even better for the persons involved? If you answer yes without hesitation, you should question how much of your thinking has been shaped by the prevalent ideology on your country. Well, on balance, I think you'd have to ask the people in forced marriages and also look at the outcomes for different societies in comparison to each other. However my opinion already stands, so asking whether I would answer yes to things I have already said that I agree with and then trying to use the immediacy of any response to try and spread doubt seems to be a little bit of a false construct. For one, that would be a fake culture (the one youll claim o belong to). Cultures are made by populations, not a random guy. Fine. I'll go find some disciples. Twelve of them preferably, just to annoy people. We'll be up to culture status in no time. Second, the workaround is bs. Here's another version: "projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, period, even if its acceptable in your culture". Please will you stop projecting your cultural preferences about not projecting cultural preferences. I don't want to have to send my disciples round again. You didn't like it last time when they refused to stop singing.

by ktizo 14y ago

einhverfr 14y ago

Gosh darn those crazy Japs! Even after we bring them our enlightened laws their families insist on keeping their arranged marriages! Seriously though.... At some point the structure of marriage and how it fits into society is a matter only for the people of that society, not a matter for outsiders. Regarding gay marriage, also consider this: In many parts of the world, adoption is relatively rare, and the entire retirement support program is moving in with one's kids. This means marriage in most parts of the world is socially tied to procreation. This also means that gay marriage may be a bit of an economic luxury made possible by 401(k)'s and spermbanks..... We can afford that in the US. How sure are we that we want to push this on other parts of the world?

ktizo 14y ago
At some point the structure of marriage and how it fits into society is a matter only for the people of that society, not a matter for outsiders. There are no outsiders. While you were away we found out that people from different cultures have been shagging all along and that we are all related (which should please mr incest at the bottom of the thread), and that all societies are deeply interconnected at every level. Thanks for worrying about the retirement plans of impoverished homosexuals though, without people like you making sure they behaved responsibly and bred, who knows where they might end up in later life.
- einhverfr 14y ago
  But there are outsiders. We all have social circles and societies of structures. My ancestors may have come over here from various places in Europe but I am still an outsider to where my ancestors may have been from. This is why I far prefer the company of anthropologists to human rights activists. I suppose though we can take this further. There are aboriginal tribes in Polynesia which engage in rituals where boys (presumably in early adolescence) become men by giving tribal elders fellatio. After all, I suppose, you are what you eat. We don't have to prove that this is harmful, since we can just claim it's child abuse.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    As far as your preference of company, I don't think that human rights activism and anthropology are particularly mutually exclusive. But on your other point, it is one thing to dispassionately note the behaviours of others, however this does not preclude having an opinion or forming a personal moral judgement on those behaviours. And if you have formed a moral judgement on a behaviour then it is perfectly ok to express your opinion, even if the people you are judging are far away or long dead. Everyone judges everyone, all the time, and this is not a terrible imposition that should be stopped, but rather is the main mechanism of social evolution throughout history.
    - einhverfr 14y ago
      But on your other point, it is one thing to dispassionately note the behaviours of others, however this does not preclude having an opinion or forming a personal moral judgement on those behaviours. I think it does preclude taking a very broad line though, and studying the constructs and how a culture fits together tends to make folks a lot less prone to advocacy. This doesn't mean that criticism of another culture is out of the question--- there is a lot of great cultural criticism that comes out of this. Examples that come readily to mind include criticisms of our (in the US) trust that Obstetrics is better than Midwifery (statistically, midwifery has better outcomes on the whole, and this is optimized when midwives are the primary care providers for all lower-risk pregnancies and childbirths), criticism of how the Morroccan henna first-marriage ceremonies entrench patriarchy, and more. But these are very detail-oriented criticisms which tend to address specific cultures, and look at them in ways which are very detail-oriented. Even the anthropologists who have criticized things like female genital cutting in Sudan have tended to note carefully how it fits into culture, and tended to avoid the inflammatory activist rhetoric (and in many cases argued even more forcefully against being overly activist on the issue). You will probably never see an anthropologist endorse a global campaign like this, because the sorts of thinking are very different. So you are right, it doesn't preclude an opinion of the way a specific culture does things. But it does seem to preclude arguments based on natural rights. BTW, great book on this topic, which over and over addresses questions of criticism of other cultures and its place in anthropology: "Deeply Into the Bone: Re-Inventing Rites of Passage" by Ronald Grimes. To say it is inspired by van Gennep's classic anthropological work "The Rites of Passage" would be an understatement. Edit: To the downvoters: One of the reasons why broad lines are usually avoided is that dynamics are rarely simple. For example, in Africa, you have long-standing patterns of European meddling in local cultures, and consequently large-scale activism from the West against female genital cutting more or less frames that practice as one of nationalist resistance.

batista 14y ago

>Being forced to spend your life with someone who you don't want, is far more of an imposition than that of an organisation publicly stating that they think it would be nice if people were allowed to marry who they do want. Thats what you say after 200K hollywood movies and romantic novels, which is another form on imposition. Is what you say good for society in general? Is it even better for the persons involved? If you answer yes without hesitation, you should question how much of your thinking has been shaped by the prevalent ideology on your country. >If projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, then all I have to do is claim to belong to a culture that finds it deeply offensive for people to claim that projecting cultural preferences is bad, and then anyone who holds the first position isn't even allowed to tell me about it, entirely by their own argument. For one, that would be a fake culture (the one youll claim o belong to). Cultures are made by populations, not a random guy. Second, the workaround is bs. Here's another version: "projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, period, even if its acceptable in your culture".

ktizo 14y ago
Thats what you say after 200K hollywood movies and romantic novels Japanese cartoons and classic sci-fi, mostly. I don't really like hollywood, or romance novels. Is what you say good for society in general? Is it even better for the persons involved? If you answer yes without hesitation, you should question how much of your thinking has been shaped by the prevalent ideology on your country. Well, on balance, I think you'd have to ask the people in forced marriages and also look at the outcomes for different societies in comparison to each other. However my opinion already stands, so asking whether I would answer yes to things I have already said that I agree with and then trying to use the immediacy of any response to try and spread doubt seems to be a little bit of a false construct. For one, that would be a fake culture (the one youll claim o belong to). Cultures are made by populations, not a random guy. Fine. I'll go find some disciples. Twelve of them preferably, just to annoy people. We'll be up to culture status in no time. Second, the workaround is bs. Here's another version: "projecting cultural preferences onto other groups is bad, period, even if its acceptable in your culture". Please will you stop projecting your cultural preferences about not projecting cultural preferences. I don't want to have to send my disciples round again. You didn't like it last time when they refused to stop singing.