5 ms·

> I believe we ask and expect too much of satire Yes, if you expect anything from satire you expect too much. Let it be art, not propaganda. Allow yourself t

> I believe we ask and expect too much of satire Yes, if you expect anything from satire you expect too much. Let it be art, not propaganda. Allow yourself to find poor execution of agreeable messages distasteful. Allow yourself to enjoy good execution of messages you disagree with.

bckr 2y ago
> Let it be art, not propaganda. My friend I have some news for you. Edit: almost ended it there but remembered what website I’m on. I don’t think there’s a material difference between art and propaganda. The art you like is merely the propaganda which you do not question.
- chairmansteve 2y ago
  So..... Monet's Water Lilies is propaganda.... What is it's message?
  - parpfish 2y ago
    Floating flowers rule, land flowers drool
  - bravura 2y ago
    "The classical tradition of "accurate" painting (Raphael and Michelangelo and Rembrandt) is not exciting. But we're not ready to go full on free jazz/postmodernist/de-constructionist. You're not ready for it yet, but your kids are going to love it."
  - bckr 2y ago
    For a contemporary example, what is the message of a painting of a watermelon? It could be merely that watermelons are beautiful. Or it could be that the artist supports the people of Palestine. For a less extreme example, think about the paintings of Norman Rockwell. Are they just pretty images? Or do they communicate norms? Think also about what is censored vs what is not censored.
    - jrflowers 2y ago
      Chairmansteve didn’t ask about theoretical paintings of watermelons that you have imagined though, he asked about Water Lilies by Monet, which is art that famously exists and is liked by many, many real people. If your point is “all art is propaganda aside from art that exists and must be replaced piece-by-piece with hypothetical counterparts in my head to support this conjecture” you could have just written that. Though “some art is propaganda and some is not” is less profound sounding than “all art is propaganda”
  - ruined 2y ago
    the ephemeral beauty i strive constantly to capture, studying these same details in this same garden across the infinitely variable day, this honest and perfect imperfection that i'm famous for revealing and sharing with the world, is within every moment of every life and every human being. (significantly he made a gift of these paintings to the french state as a war memorial)
  - lesostep 2y ago
    I disagree on the point that art is propaganda, but I can't point out almost all art contains a propaganda of some kind. Monet's Water Lilies influences common viewers to find a beauty and romanticism in simple nature. Long exposure to Monet will in general make people gaze more appreciatively at trees every now and then. Propaganda doesn't inherently mean bad or political. Healthy lifestyle propaganda is actually a good thing, for example (also the current healthy lifestyle propaganda seems poorly executed. I much prefer the 60s american, european and soviet versions of it).
- jrflowers 2y ago
  > The art you like is merely the propaganda which you do not question. I like this thought because it can be directly refuted by Cotton Eye Joe by Rednex — a highly popular piece of art that does nothing but present the audience with questions to ponder.
dmd 2y ago
You can execute the message "We think you, and people like you, should be killed" as well as you like, I'm still not going to enjoy it.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Let it be art, not propaganda You cannot “explain what you do believe under the cover of pretending to dismiss it” without blurring the line between propaganda and art. That is true of both the best art and propaganda. If someone disagrees with the message, or coöpts it, it’s propaganda.
jrflowers 2y ago
> Allow yourself to find poor execution of agreeable messages distasteful. Allow yourself to enjoy good execution of messages you disagree with. This makes sense. If you find yourself understanding and judging messages based simply off of their merits then you have failed to insert an arbitrary aesthetic filter into your cognitive process. The wisest sages know to value style over substance
- savingsPossible 2y ago
  One could say 'the wisest sages know to value style and substance' Or even: 'the wisest sages know that incorrect results can be based on some sound thinking and some muddled thinking, and correct results can be derived by tortuous thinking' Or maybe: 'the wisest sages know that some things are neither objectively true nor objectively false, and can appreciate good arguments for positions they disagree with'
- tempestn 2y ago
  I'm not sure I agree with you (your parent could be taken to simply mean, appreciate good-faith arguments, even if you disagree with them), but I appreciate your contextual use of satire.

bckr 2y ago

> Let it be art, not propaganda. My friend I have some news for you. Edit: almost ended it there but remembered what website I’m on. I don’t think there’s a material difference between art and propaganda. The art you like is merely the propaganda which you do not question.

chairmansteve 2y ago
So..... Monet's Water Lilies is propaganda.... What is it's message?
- parpfish 2y ago
  Floating flowers rule, land flowers drool
- bravura 2y ago
  "The classical tradition of "accurate" painting (Raphael and Michelangelo and Rembrandt) is not exciting. But we're not ready to go full on free jazz/postmodernist/de-constructionist. You're not ready for it yet, but your kids are going to love it."
- bckr 2y ago
  For a contemporary example, what is the message of a painting of a watermelon? It could be merely that watermelons are beautiful. Or it could be that the artist supports the people of Palestine. For a less extreme example, think about the paintings of Norman Rockwell. Are they just pretty images? Or do they communicate norms? Think also about what is censored vs what is not censored.
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    Chairmansteve didn’t ask about theoretical paintings of watermelons that you have imagined though, he asked about Water Lilies by Monet, which is art that famously exists and is liked by many, many real people. If your point is “all art is propaganda aside from art that exists and must be replaced piece-by-piece with hypothetical counterparts in my head to support this conjecture” you could have just written that. Though “some art is propaganda and some is not” is less profound sounding than “all art is propaganda”
- ruined 2y ago
  the ephemeral beauty i strive constantly to capture, studying these same details in this same garden across the infinitely variable day, this honest and perfect imperfection that i'm famous for revealing and sharing with the world, is within every moment of every life and every human being. (significantly he made a gift of these paintings to the french state as a war memorial)
- lesostep 2y ago
  I disagree on the point that art is propaganda, but I can't point out almost all art contains a propaganda of some kind. Monet's Water Lilies influences common viewers to find a beauty and romanticism in simple nature. Long exposure to Monet will in general make people gaze more appreciatively at trees every now and then. Propaganda doesn't inherently mean bad or political. Healthy lifestyle propaganda is actually a good thing, for example (also the current healthy lifestyle propaganda seems poorly executed. I much prefer the 60s american, european and soviet versions of it).
jrflowers 2y ago
> The art you like is merely the propaganda which you do not question. I like this thought because it can be directly refuted by Cotton Eye Joe by Rednex — a highly popular piece of art that does nothing but present the audience with questions to ponder.

dmd 2y ago

You can execute the message "We think you, and people like you, should be killed" as well as you like, I'm still not going to enjoy it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Let it be art, not propaganda You cannot “explain what you do believe under the cover of pretending to dismiss it” without blurring the line between propaganda and art. That is true of both the best art and propaganda. If someone disagrees with the message, or coöpts it, it’s propaganda.

jrflowers 2y ago

> Allow yourself to find poor execution of agreeable messages distasteful. Allow yourself to enjoy good execution of messages you disagree with. This makes sense. If you find yourself understanding and judging messages based simply off of their merits then you have failed to insert an arbitrary aesthetic filter into your cognitive process. The wisest sages know to value style over substance

savingsPossible 2y ago
One could say 'the wisest sages know to value style and substance' Or even: 'the wisest sages know that incorrect results can be based on some sound thinking and some muddled thinking, and correct results can be derived by tortuous thinking' Or maybe: 'the wisest sages know that some things are neither objectively true nor objectively false, and can appreciate good arguments for positions they disagree with'
tempestn 2y ago
I'm not sure I agree with you (your parent could be taken to simply mean, appreciate good-faith arguments, even if you disagree with them), but I appreciate your contextual use of satire.