8 ms·

> You elect the representatives, and they nominate in turn whoever bureaucrats they feel comfy to work with. This is not always the case, although I guess it d

by maeln 2y ago

> You elect the representatives, and they nominate in turn whoever bureaucrats they feel comfy to work with. This is not always the case, although I guess it depends how you define bureaucrats. As an example, in France, most of the administration is not nominated. You become a public worker through exam, and the representative usually have no power over your nomination, raises, etc. It does make sense in a lot of cases. For example, in a city, only the mayor and its advisers are elected, and they do not have any control over the administration of the city. But the administration cannot refuse to work with a specific mayor. If they do, they would need to be moved elsewhere, or simply be fired for not doing their job. On the other hand, they are also bound by the law, so they also act as a counter power to crazy mayor who wants to do illegal stuff. Meaning, if the mayor ask the administration to do something illegal, they can absolutely say no with no fear of repercussion for their job. It also makes sense for other counter-power office, where having the currently elected representatives being able to choose who control the office would go against its whole purpose.

lucianbr 2y ago
> You become a public worker through exam, and the representative usually have no power over your nomination, raises, etc. Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? Other public workers? At this point would they not be a sovereign group distinct from France, untouchable by the french people? I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. May be lots of layers of indirection, like the need to pass or change a law, but still. Who defines and administers the exam you mentioned? Other public representatives? Can they decide to pass their relatives?
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? Other public workers? Yes, that's how the civil service works in most countries, more or less. The US is an outlier in that the executive appoints about 4,000 civil servants; most places don't work like that (even in the US; _most_ civil servants (about 2.8 million of them, federal) are hired, promoted, disciplined etc by other civil servants; the president doesn't sit in on every interview or anything.) > I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. The elected representatives pass laws. The civil service implements them. Separately, at least in many countries, not sure about France, you have the concept of power devolved to the minister, where the legislature passes a law allowing the minister to make orders in certain restricted areas, a bit like a scope-limited version of US presidential executive orders. This occasionally has amusing repercussions if the original devolution legislation was insufficient or unconstitutional; for instance in Ireland nearly all drugs (morphine, heroin, cannabis and possibly cocaine remained illegal) were accidentally legalised for a day, when the supreme count found that the legislation used to enable the Minister for Justice to ban drugs was insufficient, thus legalising everything which had been banned since it was passed.
  - shagie 2y ago
    > The US is an outlier in that the executive appoints about 4,000 civil servants; most places don't work like that (even in the US; _most_ civil servants (about 2.8 million of them, federal) are hired, promoted, disciplined etc by other civil servants; the president doesn't sit in on every interview or anything.) This is one of the concerning parts with the incoming administration. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/25/project-2025-trump-plan-fire-civil-service-employees https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/25/project-2025... > Project 2025, which is backed by the rightwing Heritage Foundation thinktank, has proposed to “dismantle the administrative state”, while Trump’s official “Agenda 47” calls for “cleaning out the Deep State” and “on Day One” issuing an “executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats”. > That executive order would set up a system, known as Schedule F, that would revamp the federal bureaucracy so that far more jobs could be filled with political appointees rather than through traditional merit rules. Trump’s supporters say Schedule F would cover about 50,000 federal employees, but unions representing federal workers say it would cover many times that. Currently, approximately 4,000 federal positions are subject to presidential appointment. Trump’s allies are said to have compiled a list of 20,000 loyalists who could quickly move into federal jobs in a new Trump administration. --- That 4,000 is looking to become 20,000 and potentially increase up to 50,000 (and beyond depending how far reaching the reclassification is).
    - lucianbr 2y ago
      I suspect the coming administration would find a way to do the same thing even if it was in Germany or France. I suspect if the extreme right parties there ever win, they will find a way to achieve this too. Best to be aware of this, not deceive ourselves that public servants are untouchable. Some people might get the idea that voting for a very bad politician would just send a message and not have much real effect, as the civil servants are the same and will do the same job and cannot be removed. They can. Even in Germany.
      - rsynnott 2y ago
        > I suspect the coming administration would find a way to do the same thing even if it was in Germany or France. I suspect if the extreme right parties there ever win, they will find a way to achieve this too. Possibly. They’d need majority control of the legislature (not merely the sort of plurality control that seems within the bounds of possibility on some countries) and control of the courts. They’d also potentially need to be able to change the constitution; in most countries the Lisbon treaty is either implicitly or explicitly above local law. They’d need to be ready to face sanctions from the EU. I think Germany in particular also has some regulation of the civil service actually in the constitution. But ultimately, yeah, if the far right successfully took over the government (rather than just leading a coalition or something) they could probably do this; the Nazis did, after all.
- maeln 2y ago
  You are not wrong. Exam, raises, lateral and vertical move are decided (in most case) by: 1. The law. For example, public worker salary's are explicitly defined on a public grid, which depends on several factor (exact position, how long you have been in the job, the national public worker salary index, ...). 2. Their boss / future boss. Promotion it partly a matter of law, but also partly at the discretion of your boss. Same for a lateral move. If a position open, and you are qualified to fill it, you have to have interview just like a normal job offer. There is a bunch a caveat and details, but that's the gist of it. So, technically, representative do have power over this. Some representatives can change the law, and some are technically more or less the boss of the top officer at some administration. But it still make a lot of things difficult if not impossible. A mayor cannot change national law, only Deputé of the national assembly can, so he has no power over the salary of his administration. He also has no power to fire someone from the local administration unless he can prove that they did something that the law consider a fireable offense. The same would go for a minister. Of course, in effect, they do yield a lot of influence. While public worker are very, very rarely fired, they can be moved to another position, which is easier to do and what usually happen when someone powerful want them gone without having the actual power to do so directly.
- johannes1234321 2y ago
  > Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? In many countries that is done based on laws describing career progression process. In Germany most administration workers are "career" folks, who study at the university of administration and then have a career paths, where levels at are relatively clearly described. Only heads of different authorities are "political" positions, which are nominated by ministers and can be fired/retired relatively easily but even those in most cases stay across administrations. Only ministers and their direct staff change. In some ministries there sometimes is the saying "we don't care who is minoster below us" but if a some minister with an agenda is appointed they still can be very effective.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    Seems like a pretty good system. Or who knows. But since the law is written by elected representatives, to say that the representatives have no power in this case seems wrong, to me. That's all. If the voters will vote for the "fire Joe" party 20 years in a row, I guarantee Joe the civil servant will eventually be fired, even in Germany, France, anywhere. Well, maybe not in China, but that's different. Anywhere where votes still matter. Solutions would be found, laws changed, exceptions provided, and so on.
    - Yeul 2y ago
      Civil servants are a-political so why would you need to fire them? A civil servant carries out whatever law is enacted by the government. The bureaucracy is a tool and tools don't have a will.
      - jowea 2y ago
        > Civil servants are a-political so why would you need to fire them? Have you watched the British documentary series "Yes, Minister"?
        exe34 2y ago
        you mistake lethargy for strategy!
- bjourne 2y ago
  > I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. May be lots of layers of indirection, like the need to pass or change a law, but still. Yes, in the end of course. But these layers of indirection are extremely important. In my country right-wing politicians are currently rallying against prosecutors they think are "too lenient" with criminals. If it weren't for the indirection those prosecutors would have been replaced with the politicians' yes-friends long ago.
jorvi 2y ago
Meanwile, Macron chooses to ignore a left victory, then refuses to accept their prime minister and instead co-opts the election to instant the same center-right government that was broken up a few months prior. :+)
- kergonath 2y ago
  Now, to be fair that is partly the result of the left-wing coalition imploding (as usual… sigh) and being generally unwilling to compromise. It turns out that when you don’t have a majority, being the biggest party does not matter that much if you are unpleasant enough to make the other parties rally against you. Yes, I am bitter.
  - shagie 2y ago
    If you can find a copy of the game Koalition ( https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/303/koalition https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/303/koalition ) it has some of the fun of European politics in it. > 60 politicians of all colors stand for election in the 15 countries of the European Union: unimaginable benefits and positions of influence await their power brokers, for it is these Machiavellian lobbyists and self-appointed “leaders“ who hold the real power in the palms of their hands. And from the rules: > The player with the most total votes played in a given party is the party representative. If a player has two cards in the same party, their value is added. If two or more players have the same vote total in a party, the one with the highest single card is the party representative. Remember that a doubler card, if played, will always be considered the highest card. Also, note that it is possible for one player to control two parties. > If Gaudino is played in a party in competition with another politician valued 7 in that party, he is considered to be the higher card. > The green-leaf party is a special case. If two players tie for total value in green cards, it is possible that they will still tie for highest single card value. In that case, the two players are given thirty seconds to agree on who will be the green representative. If they do not agree in that time, each player with green cards may negotiate separately.
  - jorvi 2y ago
    But.. they did not implode? They put forward a reasonable candidate that they all agreed on. Macron then refused that candidate and made clear he wouldn’t verify any PM that wasn’t center-right. He stole the election, plain and simple.
wwweston 2y ago
> I guess it depends how you define bureaucrats. “If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, [those who work at public bureaus] have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us."
ruthmarx 2y ago
> For example, in a city, only the mayor and its advisers are elected, and they do not have any control over the administration of the city. But the administration cannot refuse to work with a specific mayor. The mayor can still dictate policy and the administration have to implement it if it is not illegal, right?
BrandoElFollito 2y ago
You almost managed to show or administration as a competent, hard working group that has the interests of the population in mind. The above is of course satire. We have idiotic regulations that require a good understanding of culture to get through. People are like the rest of the population: average. There are good ones send bad ones. For the exam - it completely depends on the administration and your level. We hate our administration because it is either complicated, or contacting them is a nightmare (or simply impossible)

by maeln 2y ago

lucianbr 2y ago

> You become a public worker through exam, and the representative usually have no power over your nomination, raises, etc. Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? Other public workers? At this point would they not be a sovereign group distinct from France, untouchable by the french people? I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. May be lots of layers of indirection, like the need to pass or change a law, but still. Who defines and administers the exam you mentioned? Other public representatives? Can they decide to pass their relatives?

rsynnott 2y ago
> Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? Other public workers? Yes, that's how the civil service works in most countries, more or less. The US is an outlier in that the executive appoints about 4,000 civil servants; most places don't work like that (even in the US; _most_ civil servants (about 2.8 million of them, federal) are hired, promoted, disciplined etc by other civil servants; the president doesn't sit in on every interview or anything.) > I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. The elected representatives pass laws. The civil service implements them. Separately, at least in many countries, not sure about France, you have the concept of power devolved to the minister, where the legislature passes a law allowing the minister to make orders in certain restricted areas, a bit like a scope-limited version of US presidential executive orders. This occasionally has amusing repercussions if the original devolution legislation was insufficient or unconstitutional; for instance in Ireland nearly all drugs (morphine, heroin, cannabis and possibly cocaine remained illegal) were accidentally legalised for a day, when the supreme count found that the legislation used to enable the Minister for Justice to ban drugs was insufficient, thus legalising everything which had been banned since it was passed.
- shagie 2y ago
  > The US is an outlier in that the executive appoints about 4,000 civil servants; most places don't work like that (even in the US; _most_ civil servants (about 2.8 million of them, federal) are hired, promoted, disciplined etc by other civil servants; the president doesn't sit in on every interview or anything.) This is one of the concerning parts with the incoming administration. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/25/project-2025-trump-plan-fire-civil-service-employees https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/25/project-2025... > Project 2025, which is backed by the rightwing Heritage Foundation thinktank, has proposed to “dismantle the administrative state”, while Trump’s official “Agenda 47” calls for “cleaning out the Deep State” and “on Day One” issuing an “executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats”. > That executive order would set up a system, known as Schedule F, that would revamp the federal bureaucracy so that far more jobs could be filled with political appointees rather than through traditional merit rules. Trump’s supporters say Schedule F would cover about 50,000 federal employees, but unions representing federal workers say it would cover many times that. Currently, approximately 4,000 federal positions are subject to presidential appointment. Trump’s allies are said to have compiled a list of 20,000 loyalists who could quickly move into federal jobs in a new Trump administration. --- That 4,000 is looking to become 20,000 and potentially increase up to 50,000 (and beyond depending how far reaching the reclassification is).
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    I suspect the coming administration would find a way to do the same thing even if it was in Germany or France. I suspect if the extreme right parties there ever win, they will find a way to achieve this too. Best to be aware of this, not deceive ourselves that public servants are untouchable. Some people might get the idea that voting for a very bad politician would just send a message and not have much real effect, as the civil servants are the same and will do the same job and cannot be removed. They can. Even in Germany.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      > I suspect the coming administration would find a way to do the same thing even if it was in Germany or France. I suspect if the extreme right parties there ever win, they will find a way to achieve this too. Possibly. They’d need majority control of the legislature (not merely the sort of plurality control that seems within the bounds of possibility on some countries) and control of the courts. They’d also potentially need to be able to change the constitution; in most countries the Lisbon treaty is either implicitly or explicitly above local law. They’d need to be ready to face sanctions from the EU. I think Germany in particular also has some regulation of the civil service actually in the constitution. But ultimately, yeah, if the far right successfully took over the government (rather than just leading a coalition or something) they could probably do this; the Nazis did, after all.
maeln 2y ago
You are not wrong. Exam, raises, lateral and vertical move are decided (in most case) by: 1. The law. For example, public worker salary's are explicitly defined on a public grid, which depends on several factor (exact position, how long you have been in the job, the national public worker salary index, ...). 2. Their boss / future boss. Promotion it partly a matter of law, but also partly at the discretion of your boss. Same for a lateral move. If a position open, and you are qualified to fill it, you have to have interview just like a normal job offer. There is a bunch a caveat and details, but that's the gist of it. So, technically, representative do have power over this. Some representatives can change the law, and some are technically more or less the boss of the top officer at some administration. But it still make a lot of things difficult if not impossible. A mayor cannot change national law, only Deputé of the national assembly can, so he has no power over the salary of his administration. He also has no power to fire someone from the local administration unless he can prove that they did something that the law consider a fireable offense. The same would go for a minister. Of course, in effect, they do yield a lot of influence. While public worker are very, very rarely fired, they can be moved to another position, which is easier to do and what usually happen when someone powerful want them gone without having the actual power to do so directly.
johannes1234321 2y ago
> Who else would have power over "nomination, raises etc" of anyone, if not elected representatives? In many countries that is done based on laws describing career progression process. In Germany most administration workers are "career" folks, who study at the university of administration and then have a career paths, where levels at are relatively clearly described. Only heads of different authorities are "political" positions, which are nominated by ministers and can be fired/retired relatively easily but even those in most cases stay across administrations. Only ministers and their direct staff change. In some ministries there sometimes is the saying "we don't care who is minoster below us" but if a some minister with an agenda is appointed they still can be very effective.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  Seems like a pretty good system. Or who knows. But since the law is written by elected representatives, to say that the representatives have no power in this case seems wrong, to me. That's all. If the voters will vote for the "fire Joe" party 20 years in a row, I guarantee Joe the civil servant will eventually be fired, even in Germany, France, anywhere. Well, maybe not in China, but that's different. Anywhere where votes still matter. Solutions would be found, laws changed, exceptions provided, and so on.
  - Yeul 2y ago
    Civil servants are a-political so why would you need to fire them? A civil servant carries out whatever law is enacted by the government. The bureaucracy is a tool and tools don't have a will.
    - jowea 2y ago
      > Civil servants are a-political so why would you need to fire them? Have you watched the British documentary series "Yes, Minister"?
      - exe34 2y ago
        you mistake lethargy for strategy!
bjourne 2y ago
> I guess the elected representatives have indirect power over everything in the end, if France is still a democracy. May be lots of layers of indirection, like the need to pass or change a law, but still. Yes, in the end of course. But these layers of indirection are extremely important. In my country right-wing politicians are currently rallying against prosecutors they think are "too lenient" with criminals. If it weren't for the indirection those prosecutors would have been replaced with the politicians' yes-friends long ago.

jorvi 2y ago

Meanwile, Macron chooses to ignore a left victory, then refuses to accept their prime minister and instead co-opts the election to instant the same center-right government that was broken up a few months prior. :+)

kergonath 2y ago
Now, to be fair that is partly the result of the left-wing coalition imploding (as usual… sigh) and being generally unwilling to compromise. It turns out that when you don’t have a majority, being the biggest party does not matter that much if you are unpleasant enough to make the other parties rally against you. Yes, I am bitter.
- shagie 2y ago
  If you can find a copy of the game Koalition ( https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/303/koalition https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/303/koalition ) it has some of the fun of European politics in it. > 60 politicians of all colors stand for election in the 15 countries of the European Union: unimaginable benefits and positions of influence await their power brokers, for it is these Machiavellian lobbyists and self-appointed “leaders“ who hold the real power in the palms of their hands. And from the rules: > The player with the most total votes played in a given party is the party representative. If a player has two cards in the same party, their value is added. If two or more players have the same vote total in a party, the one with the highest single card is the party representative. Remember that a doubler card, if played, will always be considered the highest card. Also, note that it is possible for one player to control two parties. > If Gaudino is played in a party in competition with another politician valued 7 in that party, he is considered to be the higher card. > The green-leaf party is a special case. If two players tie for total value in green cards, it is possible that they will still tie for highest single card value. In that case, the two players are given thirty seconds to agree on who will be the green representative. If they do not agree in that time, each player with green cards may negotiate separately.
- jorvi 2y ago
  But.. they did not implode? They put forward a reasonable candidate that they all agreed on. Macron then refused that candidate and made clear he wouldn’t verify any PM that wasn’t center-right. He stole the election, plain and simple.

wwweston 2y ago

> I guess it depends how you define bureaucrats. “If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, [those who work at public bureaus] have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us."

ruthmarx 2y ago

> For example, in a city, only the mayor and its advisers are elected, and they do not have any control over the administration of the city. But the administration cannot refuse to work with a specific mayor. The mayor can still dictate policy and the administration have to implement it if it is not illegal, right?

BrandoElFollito 2y ago

You almost managed to show or administration as a competent, hard working group that has the interests of the population in mind. The above is of course satire. We have idiotic regulations that require a good understanding of culture to get through. People are like the rest of the population: average. There are good ones send bad ones. For the exam - it completely depends on the administration and your level. We hate our administration because it is either complicated, or contacting them is a nightmare (or simply impossible)