4 ms·

A question I've had on my mind for a while now, watching this progression of fake or poisoned jobs, and miles of automatic systems to navigate: At what point d

by oriel 2y ago

A question I've had on my mind for a while now, watching this progression of fake or poisoned jobs, and miles of automatic systems to navigate: At what point do people consider the well poisoned? Where they just check out and stop applying, to specific companies or in general, because its very very obvious that there isnt actually a valid hiring market at all. I ask this question, because I've already passed this threshold, and have instead devoted the maximum of my time to personal ventures.

spacephysics 2y ago
I got laid off then brought back on last minute (whiplash), and though i was burned out while applying during the transition period, end of the day i needed a job. So whether people check out as in, leave industry or take a smaller pay sure i can see that happening. But unless you have large savings or low expenses, you can’t really stop. If it didn’t take 50 app submissions for 1 interview, and the interviews weren’t l33t code crap, then i’d be crazy enough to enjoy the process.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  This is why we all need to live below our means if possible. It gives the hamster wheel less power over you.
bob1029 2y ago
> I've already passed this threshold, and have instead devoted the maximum of my time to personal ventures. Same here. After a certain point you are doing yourself a disservice by enduring rejection notices if you actually have the skills you claim to. The hardest part is having faith in yourself and the possibility of acquiring a customer.
- masfuerte 2y ago
  Rejection notices? I get ghosted. I would welcome a rejection notice.
spacebanana7 2y ago
It really depends on the position of the prospective employee. An unemployed person who needs a job should theoretically spend their workday hours on recruitment efforts. The prevalence of fake jobs might affect which roles they apply for but not the total number of applications. However for employed individuals seeking a promotion it can have a big impact. Is it worth spending many hours of your leisure time applying/interviewing for a job that pays 10% more, if the job has even a small likelihood of being fake? Probably not.
- seabass-labrax 2y ago
  The 'well could be poisoned' for unemployed people as well. Applying to job adverts isn't the only type of recruitment efforts; there is also further education and tending to professional social networks - the unemployed individual could easily consider these more valuable than applying to probably fake job adverts. Ultimately, this still hurts both worker and employer, because it just delays gainful employment and hides information from the market.
chairmansteve 2y ago
I gave up applying for jobs many years ago. Mostly because I am bad at the interview process. I maintain a good personal network and have a good reputation, so I can always find work.
Applejinx 2y ago
There are many analogous questions! One of the most interesting challenges in life is trying to observe when the presentation of reality is fundamentally dishonest for some reason. The well poisoned, as it were. I didn't know the hiring market was one of these situations, but I could see that being the case. Seems like a lot of hype and noise, but is anything really going on or is it just hollow?
Lammy 2y ago
I'm already there with the monthly HN hiring threads. Not one of those companies over several years ever responded to me, even the ones where the listing felt tailor made for me, even the ones that literally said they respond to all applicants. They're a total waste of time lol
- avgDev 2y ago
  Seems like it would be beneficial to the community for someone to add some kind of a rating system for people posting in the HN hiring threads. I would expect at minimum to get a response. Internet has gone to shit. It used to be much easier to find genuine people on the internet. Now, it is all marketing non-sense and filled with get-rich types.
  - samuelec 2y ago
    Naah! it would ended up like Glassdoors which keeps deleting posts that don't serve the company narrative..
  - whoomp12342 2y ago
    I assumed that was upvoting?
    - mdaniel 2y ago
      Well, downvoting in the case discussing ghosting, right? But just like any voting system one datum doesn't really tell the story. Since creating throwaway accounts is pretty normal around here, I'd guess the solution is to reply to the posting calling out the "can't even be bothered to say fuck off" to warn others not to bother. Bonus points for doing that every month when they inevitably repost their fake listing next time
  - xhkkffbf 2y ago
    My thoughts exactly. I haven't really tried many of the HN monthly postings myself very often, but once in a while I see something irresistible. But they never respond. Or they have an auto responder which doesn't count in my book. When one company never responded, I added a comment to their ad the next month saying as much. The poor guy had to make up something about a spam filter. Some kind of rating system would be helpful.
happyopossum 2y ago
IME, it’s been a crap system for decades. 7 of my last 7 jobs (over ~25 years) have been obtained through “my network” - ie former coworkers who enjoyed (tolerated?) working with me and were happy to make referrals, reach out, or in other ways help when I was looking for a new job. And often when I wasn’t looking.
thrwaway_hn_alt 2y ago
I am in this position. In the last few months I've submitted dozens of job applications for positions where, as articulated by another commenter upthread, the person writing the JD could have been writing it based on my resume. 15+ YOE, interesting work, promotions with progression of responsibility and impact, deep experience working with executives on the business side, side projects, volunteering experience, I speak multiple natural languages (I even tried applying for some "international" roles), etc. 0 responses apart from "we're going with other candidates". Not even so much as a phone screen. Inbound recruiting stream has dried up as well. In 2017-2018 I was getting a dozen or more emails from recruiters weekly. Now I get maybe one a month, typically for C2H or a full-time role w/ at least a 20% pay cut. I've shifted my focus to entrepreneurial work and sharpening skills outside of tech.
- tartoran 2y ago
  Are you kind enough to share what kind of entrepreneurial work you're focusing on? Is it tech related in any way?
  - thrwaway_hn_alt 2y ago
    Yes and no. Primarily working on growing a pressure washing business so I can be utterly done with (full-time, employee) tech work. The other thing is an app / community for teaching meditation (a longtime passion of mine). I don't know if it will do well but if it nets me a half-dozen to a dozen students that I am instructing 1-1 via zoom for 20-30 minutes on a weekly basis when I FIRE here in the next five years I'll be happy.
    - tartoran 2y ago
      Thanks a ton, I wish good luck and you a happy sane life.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Similar. Time to reach out to your network.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
Yep. I just decided to stop playing the game. I looked for about the first 6 months (a requirement for unemployment) but after that I decided to just retire. I was planning to work a few years more, but it's just not worth it. It's not only the ghost jobs, it's the whole interview process where you could spend days on interviews and take home tests and you still don't get the job. And then there's the ageism. No thanks. I'm out. Fortunately I can afford to be (frugally) retired.
truemotive 2y ago
If I had to wager a guess, and this is being conservative and fortunate, after about a year and exhausting unemployment you start staring into the wall and saying 'WTF' to yourself out loud. It's a bummer and discouragement is the last sort of thing that person needs at that point.

by oriel 2y ago

spacephysics 2y ago

I got laid off then brought back on last minute (whiplash), and though i was burned out while applying during the transition period, end of the day i needed a job. So whether people check out as in, leave industry or take a smaller pay sure i can see that happening. But unless you have large savings or low expenses, you can’t really stop. If it didn’t take 50 app submissions for 1 interview, and the interviews weren’t l33t code crap, then i’d be crazy enough to enjoy the process.

from-nibly 2y ago
This is why we all need to live below our means if possible. It gives the hamster wheel less power over you.

bob1029 2y ago

> I've already passed this threshold, and have instead devoted the maximum of my time to personal ventures. Same here. After a certain point you are doing yourself a disservice by enduring rejection notices if you actually have the skills you claim to. The hardest part is having faith in yourself and the possibility of acquiring a customer.

masfuerte 2y ago
Rejection notices? I get ghosted. I would welcome a rejection notice.

spacebanana7 2y ago

It really depends on the position of the prospective employee. An unemployed person who needs a job should theoretically spend their workday hours on recruitment efforts. The prevalence of fake jobs might affect which roles they apply for but not the total number of applications. However for employed individuals seeking a promotion it can have a big impact. Is it worth spending many hours of your leisure time applying/interviewing for a job that pays 10% more, if the job has even a small likelihood of being fake? Probably not.

seabass-labrax 2y ago
The 'well could be poisoned' for unemployed people as well. Applying to job adverts isn't the only type of recruitment efforts; there is also further education and tending to professional social networks - the unemployed individual could easily consider these more valuable than applying to probably fake job adverts. Ultimately, this still hurts both worker and employer, because it just delays gainful employment and hides information from the market.

chairmansteve 2y ago

I gave up applying for jobs many years ago. Mostly because I am bad at the interview process. I maintain a good personal network and have a good reputation, so I can always find work.

Applejinx 2y ago

There are many analogous questions! One of the most interesting challenges in life is trying to observe when the presentation of reality is fundamentally dishonest for some reason. The well poisoned, as it were. I didn't know the hiring market was one of these situations, but I could see that being the case. Seems like a lot of hype and noise, but is anything really going on or is it just hollow?

Lammy 2y ago

I'm already there with the monthly HN hiring threads. Not one of those companies over several years ever responded to me, even the ones where the listing felt tailor made for me, even the ones that literally said they respond to all applicants. They're a total waste of time lol

avgDev 2y ago
Seems like it would be beneficial to the community for someone to add some kind of a rating system for people posting in the HN hiring threads. I would expect at minimum to get a response. Internet has gone to shit. It used to be much easier to find genuine people on the internet. Now, it is all marketing non-sense and filled with get-rich types.
- samuelec 2y ago
  Naah! it would ended up like Glassdoors which keeps deleting posts that don't serve the company narrative..
- whoomp12342 2y ago
  I assumed that was upvoting?
  - mdaniel 2y ago
    Well, downvoting in the case discussing ghosting, right? But just like any voting system one datum doesn't really tell the story. Since creating throwaway accounts is pretty normal around here, I'd guess the solution is to reply to the posting calling out the "can't even be bothered to say fuck off" to warn others not to bother. Bonus points for doing that every month when they inevitably repost their fake listing next time
- xhkkffbf 2y ago
  My thoughts exactly. I haven't really tried many of the HN monthly postings myself very often, but once in a while I see something irresistible. But they never respond. Or they have an auto responder which doesn't count in my book. When one company never responded, I added a comment to their ad the next month saying as much. The poor guy had to make up something about a spam filter. Some kind of rating system would be helpful.

happyopossum 2y ago

IME, it’s been a crap system for decades. 7 of my last 7 jobs (over ~25 years) have been obtained through “my network” - ie former coworkers who enjoyed (tolerated?) working with me and were happy to make referrals, reach out, or in other ways help when I was looking for a new job. And often when I wasn’t looking.

thrwaway_hn_alt 2y ago

I am in this position. In the last few months I've submitted dozens of job applications for positions where, as articulated by another commenter upthread, the person writing the JD could have been writing it based on my resume. 15+ YOE, interesting work, promotions with progression of responsibility and impact, deep experience working with executives on the business side, side projects, volunteering experience, I speak multiple natural languages (I even tried applying for some "international" roles), etc. 0 responses apart from "we're going with other candidates". Not even so much as a phone screen. Inbound recruiting stream has dried up as well. In 2017-2018 I was getting a dozen or more emails from recruiters weekly. Now I get maybe one a month, typically for C2H or a full-time role w/ at least a 20% pay cut. I've shifted my focus to entrepreneurial work and sharpening skills outside of tech.

tartoran 2y ago
Are you kind enough to share what kind of entrepreneurial work you're focusing on? Is it tech related in any way?
- thrwaway_hn_alt 2y ago
  Yes and no. Primarily working on growing a pressure washing business so I can be utterly done with (full-time, employee) tech work. The other thing is an app / community for teaching meditation (a longtime passion of mine). I don't know if it will do well but if it nets me a half-dozen to a dozen students that I am instructing 1-1 via zoom for 20-30 minutes on a weekly basis when I FIRE here in the next five years I'll be happy.
  - tartoran 2y ago
    Thanks a ton, I wish good luck and you a happy sane life.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Similar. Time to reach out to your network.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

Yep. I just decided to stop playing the game. I looked for about the first 6 months (a requirement for unemployment) but after that I decided to just retire. I was planning to work a few years more, but it's just not worth it. It's not only the ghost jobs, it's the whole interview process where you could spend days on interviews and take home tests and you still don't get the job. And then there's the ageism. No thanks. I'm out. Fortunately I can afford to be (frugally) retired.

truemotive 2y ago

If I had to wager a guess, and this is being conservative and fortunate, after about a year and exhausting unemployment you start staring into the wall and saying 'WTF' to yourself out loud. It's a bummer and discouragement is the last sort of thing that person needs at that point.