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> > I was a L5 IC at the time and that was an L8 decision > omg, this sounds like the gigantic, ossified and crushing bureaucracy of a third world country. No

> > I was a L5 IC at the time and that was an L8 decision > omg, this sounds like the gigantic, ossified and crushing bureaucracy of a third world country. No, it sounds like how most successful organizations work.

openrisk 2y ago
Most large organizations are hugely bureucratic regardless of whether they are successful or not :-) In any case the prompt for the thread is somebody mentioning their (subjective) view that the deep hiearachy they were operating under, made a "wrong call". We'll never know if this true or not, but it points to the challenges for this type of organizational structure faces. Dynamics in remote layers floating somewhere "above your level" decide the fate of things. Aspects that may have little to do with any meritocracy, reasonableness, fairness etc. become the deciding factors...
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > Aspects that may have little to do with any meritocracy, reasonableness, fairness etc. become the deciding factors... If you're not presenting an alterative system, then is it still the best one you can think of?
  - openrisk 2y ago
    There have been countless proposals for alternative systems. Last-in, first-out from memory is holacracy [1] "Holacracy is a method of decentralized management and organizational governance, which claims to distribute authority and decision-making through a holarchy of self-organizing teams rather than being vested in a management hierarchy". Not sure there has been an opportunity to objectively test what are the pros and cons of all the possibilities. The mix of historical happenstance, vested interests, ideology, expedience, habit etc. that determines what is actually happening does not leave much room for observing alternatives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      But how do you know that Holocracy is more reasonable or fair? The Wikipedia article you linked isn't exactly glowing!
    - pie420 2y ago
      Every company I've seen that has tried Holacracy abandoned it shortly after.

openrisk 2y ago

Most large organizations are hugely bureucratic regardless of whether they are successful or not :-) In any case the prompt for the thread is somebody mentioning their (subjective) view that the deep hiearachy they were operating under, made a "wrong call". We'll never know if this true or not, but it points to the challenges for this type of organizational structure faces. Dynamics in remote layers floating somewhere "above your level" decide the fate of things. Aspects that may have little to do with any meritocracy, reasonableness, fairness etc. become the deciding factors...

robertlagrant 2y ago
> Aspects that may have little to do with any meritocracy, reasonableness, fairness etc. become the deciding factors... If you're not presenting an alterative system, then is it still the best one you can think of?
- openrisk 2y ago
  There have been countless proposals for alternative systems. Last-in, first-out from memory is holacracy [1] "Holacracy is a method of decentralized management and organizational governance, which claims to distribute authority and decision-making through a holarchy of self-organizing teams rather than being vested in a management hierarchy". Not sure there has been an opportunity to objectively test what are the pros and cons of all the possibilities. The mix of historical happenstance, vested interests, ideology, expedience, habit etc. that determines what is actually happening does not leave much room for observing alternatives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    But how do you know that Holocracy is more reasonable or fair? The Wikipedia article you linked isn't exactly glowing!
  - pie420 2y ago
    Every company I've seen that has tried Holacracy abandoned it shortly after.