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The point was that the Saudi Prince more or less admitted he said it because of political opportunism in the realities of his rule. He still tries to normalize

The point was that the Saudi Prince more or less admitted he said it because of political opportunism in the realities of his rule. He still tries to normalize relations with Israel as much as possible. You try to throw stuff together on the topic of occupation, but anyway... What certainly is wrong though is your framing of an ethnic cleansing campaign in 48. That is just nonsense. At the time Jews were suppressed by Arab nationalism. The mufti of Jerusalem became a puppet of Hitler and was kind of convinced about the idea of a holocaust in the middle east. Of course some people had to move after Israel won its war for independence, that is nothing new in war. Even more Jews were driven from surrounding countries, the majority of todays Israelis. That issue is part of the reality of nations forming or not and a reality Palestinians need to accept. Some are ready for that, parties like Hamas are not. A blockade isn't an occupation at all, again, words do have meaning. Security interests are relevant. Israel can prove that building a wall did save lives. There is evidence of that. Further blockades are entirely legal, but do not form any form of occupation. That Israel has military capabilities is of no relevance. Whether my opinion is a minority position or not is not of relevance. You should strive to have the correct opinion, although I would certainly say that "Israel commits genocide" is a fringe opinion, but maybe our circles diverge. Calling it opinion from my perspective already gives it some more benefit of the doubt. Again the question, what do you see in the future? Intifada 5.0? You believe it will end in a different result than we now see in Gaza. By the way, some people confirm the propaganda kids are subjected in schools there. The kids are innocent, other that could know better not so much... > surely you must at least suspect there might be a genocidal intent among some of Israel’s rulers I do not, such insinuation would be quite unusual and would be entirely irrelevant de jure. I can play that game too. I believe you don't give a rats ass about Palestinians, you just want to throw more of them into the meat grinder. Maybe we should leave ascribing intend to anyone and stick to reality, shall we?

runarberg 2y ago
> Whether my opinion is a minority position or not is not of relevance. It is. That is the crux of the matter. Genocide deniers aren’t just a minority, but a shrinking minority, and more importantly, a shrinking minority at odds with the consensus among experts and international organizations who’s purpose it is to form opinion on these matters. Here is a document that matters. A UN commissioned special committee, tasked with investigating human rights violation against Palestinians[1]. It concludes (para. 69): > The developments in this report lead the Special Committee to conclude that the policies and practices of Israel during the reporting period are consistent with the characteristics of genocide and adds (para. 70): > The multiple violations of international law by Israel in its war on Gaza; its apartheid system of injustice in the occupied West Bank, within the broader context of its decades-long occupation-cum-annexation of Palestinian and Syrian Golan territories; and its ongoing defiance of binding Security Council resolutions and orders of the International Court of Justice, gravely weaken the international rules-based system. This report was published last September by a special committee with a mandate to do so after a General Assembly resolution way back in 1968. It was not written by victims of genocide, but by mandated observers who have been illegally denied entry to follow their mandate. Why did Israel deny them entry, and break International law doing so? A good plausible theory here is that Israeli rulers are intent on committing a genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, and are attempting to hide their violations in the hopes they will escape justice. 1: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-report-special-committee-investigate-israeli-practices-affecting https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-r...
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  Your other comments just confirms to me that you seem to have more problems with Israel than with the plight of Palestinians. This is a line of thinking that only increases the conflict. Your outlook isn't realistic. That the UN has many resolutions against Israel is a danger to the credibility of the UN, not to Israel in the context how international law is enforced. The UN resolutions against Israel are political opportunism that undermines institutions like the UN and in some cases is the usual international political calculus. It is often against the US hegemony instead of against Israel. We disagree about what the future will likely look like. I think your position is part to the problem Palestinians do face and they may have to stay in a limbo for a longer time. Something could be done against the radicalization of young people in Gaza. Something more than confirming their beliefs with conspiracies about Israel. In most cases where people have problems with Jews there is an underlying problem with some form of inferiority complex. Be that as it may, it is of no relevance to me. Here is what I believe to happen if nobody has some productive new perspectives. Gaza will be occupied again until maybe Israel decides to withdraw at some point. Israeli will live their "normal" lives, while Palestinians have to content themselves with Islamic Fundamentalism. But there is little political capital for another withdrawal in the foreseeable future. Other surrounding countries will normalize relation or already have done so because as the Saudi Prince just demonstrated, some words are enough for some groups placate their aggression against Israel. Some rhetoric of international help organizations directed against Israel in a sharp manner, because they too see little hope in any improvements in the middle east because the current situation is even more dire for them than before. But ultimately Israel can only do so much to help here, because the real genocidal intend lies with the radical political representation of Palestinians. I don't see where you believe the improvements for their situation would manifest and I believe even Iran will be more careful to undermine Israel. Their political battles will be elsewhere and Palestinians were also just a tool for them. Just don't be disappointed later.
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runarberg 2y ago
In an attempt to stay on topic, I’m splitting the thread here to answer your question: > Again the question, what do you see in the future? What I see in the future is the followup to Palestinians finally be given a voice at the international stage (a process started before oct. 7 2023; but escalated dramatically since). This gives Palestinians a new avenue of resistance, namely international politics. I see them being very successful here, as sympathy is very high, and unlikely to shrink, given the genocide. On the flip side this will come at the cost of Israel who will see their influenced diminished at the same time. Serial violations of international law will come up to them, and I honestly don’t see Israel even being a member of the UN in 2 years time. This will be the focus of Palestinian resistance, not armed resistance (even though armed resistance will probably not vanish). Historically, when anti-colonial resistance is given a political avenue for their fight, almost 100% they take it, and are much more successful then with previous tactics of terrorism (though, far too often, it takes terrorism to get that political avenue in the first place). After Israel falls out of line with the international community I can only see two scenarios, either it persists as a fascist dictatorship for a couple of decades before succumbing to a popular uprising (including armed resistance from Palestinians) or it goes the way of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa, and drops its ethno-nationalist policies in favor of a single democracy for all it’s peoples, which includes Palestinians in the currently occupied territories. The second scenario is far more likely, and a much happier ending for everybody involved. Either way there is not much hope for the Jewish state of Israel. Going back to the ancestor comment when I jumped into this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42109905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42109905): Ethno-states are not a good idea.

runarberg 2y ago

> Whether my opinion is a minority position or not is not of relevance. It is. That is the crux of the matter. Genocide deniers aren’t just a minority, but a shrinking minority, and more importantly, a shrinking minority at odds with the consensus among experts and international organizations who’s purpose it is to form opinion on these matters. Here is a document that matters. A UN commissioned special committee, tasked with investigating human rights violation against Palestinians[1]. It concludes (para. 69): > The developments in this report lead the Special Committee to conclude that the policies and practices of Israel during the reporting period are consistent with the characteristics of genocide and adds (para. 70): > The multiple violations of international law by Israel in its war on Gaza; its apartheid system of injustice in the occupied West Bank, within the broader context of its decades-long occupation-cum-annexation of Palestinian and Syrian Golan territories; and its ongoing defiance of binding Security Council resolutions and orders of the International Court of Justice, gravely weaken the international rules-based system. This report was published last September by a special committee with a mandate to do so after a General Assembly resolution way back in 1968. It was not written by victims of genocide, but by mandated observers who have been illegally denied entry to follow their mandate. Why did Israel deny them entry, and break International law doing so? A good plausible theory here is that Israeli rulers are intent on committing a genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, and are attempting to hide their violations in the hopes they will escape justice. 1: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-report-special-committee-investigate-israeli-practices-affecting https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-r...

raxxorraxor 2y ago
Your other comments just confirms to me that you seem to have more problems with Israel than with the plight of Palestinians. This is a line of thinking that only increases the conflict. Your outlook isn't realistic. That the UN has many resolutions against Israel is a danger to the credibility of the UN, not to Israel in the context how international law is enforced. The UN resolutions against Israel are political opportunism that undermines institutions like the UN and in some cases is the usual international political calculus. It is often against the US hegemony instead of against Israel. We disagree about what the future will likely look like. I think your position is part to the problem Palestinians do face and they may have to stay in a limbo for a longer time. Something could be done against the radicalization of young people in Gaza. Something more than confirming their beliefs with conspiracies about Israel. In most cases where people have problems with Jews there is an underlying problem with some form of inferiority complex. Be that as it may, it is of no relevance to me. Here is what I believe to happen if nobody has some productive new perspectives. Gaza will be occupied again until maybe Israel decides to withdraw at some point. Israeli will live their "normal" lives, while Palestinians have to content themselves with Islamic Fundamentalism. But there is little political capital for another withdrawal in the foreseeable future. Other surrounding countries will normalize relation or already have done so because as the Saudi Prince just demonstrated, some words are enough for some groups placate their aggression against Israel. Some rhetoric of international help organizations directed against Israel in a sharp manner, because they too see little hope in any improvements in the middle east because the current situation is even more dire for them than before. But ultimately Israel can only do so much to help here, because the real genocidal intend lies with the radical political representation of Palestinians. I don't see where you believe the improvements for their situation would manifest and I believe even Iran will be more careful to undermine Israel. Their political battles will be elsewhere and Palestinians were also just a tool for them. Just don't be disappointed later.
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runarberg 2y ago

In an attempt to stay on topic, I’m splitting the thread here to answer your question: > Again the question, what do you see in the future? What I see in the future is the followup to Palestinians finally be given a voice at the international stage (a process started before oct. 7 2023; but escalated dramatically since). This gives Palestinians a new avenue of resistance, namely international politics. I see them being very successful here, as sympathy is very high, and unlikely to shrink, given the genocide. On the flip side this will come at the cost of Israel who will see their influenced diminished at the same time. Serial violations of international law will come up to them, and I honestly don’t see Israel even being a member of the UN in 2 years time. This will be the focus of Palestinian resistance, not armed resistance (even though armed resistance will probably not vanish). Historically, when anti-colonial resistance is given a political avenue for their fight, almost 100% they take it, and are much more successful then with previous tactics of terrorism (though, far too often, it takes terrorism to get that political avenue in the first place). After Israel falls out of line with the international community I can only see two scenarios, either it persists as a fascist dictatorship for a couple of decades before succumbing to a popular uprising (including armed resistance from Palestinians) or it goes the way of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa, and drops its ethno-nationalist policies in favor of a single democracy for all it’s peoples, which includes Palestinians in the currently occupied territories. The second scenario is far more likely, and a much happier ending for everybody involved. Either way there is not much hope for the Jewish state of Israel. Going back to the ancestor comment when I jumped into this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42109905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42109905): Ethno-states are not a good idea.