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GGP said avoiding data collection is a reason to use linux. GP asked what data collection. The answer was "any at all". That is not "sidestepping the question".

GGP said avoiding data collection is a reason to use linux. GP asked what data collection. The answer was "any at all". That is not "sidestepping the question". GGP didn't state they think they are harmed by data collection, they only stated they don't want their data to be collected.

coldpie 2y ago
Right, so we're back to the OP of this thread--open source software doesn't have access to a useful tool, and you can't explain why you are refusing them to have this tool. This results in lower quality software, to no one's benefit.
- bondarchuk 2y ago
  I disagree with your attempt to frame this like it is an issue that needs to be resolved at all costs. Yes, I don't give developers access to my data which would be useful for them. No, I won't explain why I'm refusing this. Yes, it might result in some lower quality software. I am completely fine with that situation and wish it will stay that way.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    That's totally fine and they have an opt-out mechanism for people who feel like that. I don't think anyone is behaving badly here. They want to collect data to make their software better; opt-in has significant downsides; and you have an option to turn off the data collection. What are we complaining about?
    - bondarchuk 2y ago
      The problem is that right now I only know about this in the first place because I just happened to open hacker news at this hour of the day. You seem to agree that it is totally fine if I don't want my data collected, but how could I even prevent it if I don't know about it (since it is opt-out only)?
      - coldpie 2y ago
        This is a fair point! I think for people who feel so strongly about this, it's perhaps the best compromise that you have to go digging into the settings for it, since opt-in is basically the same as not having it at all. It seems unlikely to me that a project like Manjaro would go out of their way (as Google etc do) to use dark patterns and disrespect your wishes here.
        Kim_Bruning 2y ago
        "Opt-Out" is a dark pattern per definition. If everyone does it (and on some platforms many people do), it leads to an impossible eternal whack-a-mole situation where the user is constantly monitoring their system while still being unable to ever be 100% certain that every leak is closed. This is why some users opt for a system that enforce Opt-In or even Opt-Never by default. The sheer peace of mind is worth a lot. And it's not even such a strange stance. Consider eg Enterprise or National security. Why shouldn't a regular user have such security by default?
wkat4242 2y ago
I'm in that club too. I don't see an immediate negative. I just don't want my data collected.

coldpie 2y ago

Right, so we're back to the OP of this thread--open source software doesn't have access to a useful tool, and you can't explain why you are refusing them to have this tool. This results in lower quality software, to no one's benefit.

bondarchuk 2y ago
I disagree with your attempt to frame this like it is an issue that needs to be resolved at all costs. Yes, I don't give developers access to my data which would be useful for them. No, I won't explain why I'm refusing this. Yes, it might result in some lower quality software. I am completely fine with that situation and wish it will stay that way.
- coldpie 2y ago
  That's totally fine and they have an opt-out mechanism for people who feel like that. I don't think anyone is behaving badly here. They want to collect data to make their software better; opt-in has significant downsides; and you have an option to turn off the data collection. What are we complaining about?
  - bondarchuk 2y ago
    The problem is that right now I only know about this in the first place because I just happened to open hacker news at this hour of the day. You seem to agree that it is totally fine if I don't want my data collected, but how could I even prevent it if I don't know about it (since it is opt-out only)?
    - coldpie 2y ago
      This is a fair point! I think for people who feel so strongly about this, it's perhaps the best compromise that you have to go digging into the settings for it, since opt-in is basically the same as not having it at all. It seems unlikely to me that a project like Manjaro would go out of their way (as Google etc do) to use dark patterns and disrespect your wishes here.
      - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
        "Opt-Out" is a dark pattern per definition. If everyone does it (and on some platforms many people do), it leads to an impossible eternal whack-a-mole situation where the user is constantly monitoring their system while still being unable to ever be 100% certain that every leak is closed. This is why some users opt for a system that enforce Opt-In or even Opt-Never by default. The sheer peace of mind is worth a lot. And it's not even such a strange stance. Consider eg Enterprise or National security. Why shouldn't a regular user have such security by default?

wkat4242 2y ago

I'm in that club too. I don't see an immediate negative. I just don't want my data collected.