4 ms·

Ban on women marrying after 25: the proposal to boost birth rate in Japan

alsetmusic 2y ago
Out of order: > The minister proposed prohibiting women from getting married after the age of 25 and having forced hysterectomies ( uterus removal procedures) at the age of 30. > The politician also suggested barring women from attending college after the age of 18, allegedly in order to concentrate on having more children. Even worse than the headline lead me to believe. > Hyakuta became recognised on the far right of Japanese politics in part because of his best-selling book The Eternal Zero, which was adapted into a movie that glorified kamikaze pilots in the closing days of World War II. Just who we should listen to about ideas. > Sumie Kawakami, a lecturer at Yamanashi Gakuin University and author of a book on gender issues, told This Week in Asia, “I cannot believe that a Japanese politician has said such a thing. I can only see these comments as a call to violence against women.” Yep. > He explained that these concepts were not intended to be taken literally, but rather were presented as a “science-fiction storyline” to start conversation. He added on X that he does not support such extreme actions against women and that his remarks were “extremely harsh.” Sounds like he’s an L, Ton Hubbard type. Time to start a grifting, litigious religion. My friend, who is going through IVF to have a child in her 40s, would love this. Seriously, this man should not have any type of leadership role after this. What a dystopian hellscape in his head.
- gigatexal 2y ago
  Oh good the world is becoming even more hostile to women. This is exactly what we need! Here’s hoping the Japanese wise up and don’t go along with this insanity.
- delichon 2y ago
  > He explained that these concepts were not intended to be taken literally, but rather were presented as a “science-fiction storyline” to start conversation. I think we need more space for devil's advocacy. We don't really know what we believe unless we can calmly, rationally argue for it rather than evading it. Modest proposals have a lot to teach. Failing to engage with alternatives to our values makes us more vulnerable to them, not less. The world would not be improved if The Handmaid's Tale had been suppressed, and a non-fictional debate on a similar topic is no different. This example amounts to a gedankenexperiment simulation of an alternative incentive structure. We have a lot to learn about the effect of incentives, and simulations are the best available teacher that doesn't require tuition in blood.
  - edflsafoiewq 2y ago
    Well, what do we learn from this modest proposal then?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      The charitable takeaway is the suggestion that Japan should think about more radical social engineering and incentives to promote motherhood, including those that would highlight a sense of urgency or immediacy. Similar concepts mentioned in the interview would be sex education about the real benefits of having children earlier.
codevark 2y ago
[dead]
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Nuance and critical thought is difficult in the current media environment. For those primed to outrage, Hyakuta preceded the entire comment with this quote "Im not saying this is a good solution- I mean, it really isnt good." [1]. It seems like the primary complaint amounts to people not wanting to imagine or think about distasteful topics. I wonder what kind of headlines Jonathan Swift's modest proposal would generate in the modern clickbait era. "Irish influencer apologies for abhorrent suggestion that the poor feed their children to the rich." https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uterus-removal-for-women-at-30-japan-leaders-bizarre-proposal-to-boost-birth-rate-sparks-backlash-7000722 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uterus-removal-for-women-at-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Shawnecy 2y ago
  Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal was satire. Are you suggesting Naoki Hyakuta's comment was as well? I haven't read it that way. And just because he prefixed it with a disclaimer of how bad it was doesn't negate his responsibility to not say stupid things. And it is stupid to think that if you restrict the right for half your population to marry then you'll increase the birth rate.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Im not saying it was satire; it wasn't meant to be humorous or hypocritical. It was an intentionally hyperbolic example to illustrate what the concept of radical social engineering is, and how it could drive a sense of immediacy. Why is it a stupid thing to say? It wasn't proposed as a validated or effective solution. I agree that a marriage ban after 25 probably wouldn't help. The point wasn't to propose viable solutions - they were repeatedly stated to be bad. I agree that the concept could have been presented more clearly, and used an unnecessarily distasteful example. I just dont think that justifies the lying, disinfo, and manufactured outrage about what he said. He clearly was not "advocating for a ban on women marrying after the age of 25 and having their uteruses removed at the age of 30." and didn't "[suggest] barring women from attending college after the age of 18" If the headline read "politician uses horrific example with unclear point" there would be fewer clicks. Lies sell adds and fear drives up engagement.
sneak 2y ago
The latest installment on the systemic denial of equal rights to women in Japanese society. This is a proposed human rights violation, to say nothing of any other aspect of it. The UDHR is clear on this. Why are the types of people making these proposals even given the time of day?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  If the wrong people are in charge, all you can do is take rational actions that protect yourself from suboptimal outcomes (as women are doing). Democracy and governance have a lot of shortfalls, as the evidence shows.
accra4rx 2y ago
This is how political ideology often gains ground: First, an initially outrageous idea is introduced. Over time, this idea is gradually normalized, becoming more acceptable. Eventually, it’s implemented with the support of hidden allies who were quietly aligned all along."
- mu53 2y ago
  It is still unlikely that this will go anywhere Birthrate issues in east asia come down to short term rewards vs long term rewards. Income/leisure/career vs national security/sustaining ethnic identity. This fixes nothing and helps no one
  - stonesthrowaway 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I think planned is far to strong a word. I think that instead, it is simply a byproduct of the cultural adoption of hedonism (which places happiness above other human goals) and consumerism (Which places material acquisition as the primary means to achieve ones goals). Hedonism and consumerism are pushed by a broad by swath of interests, from industry to government, so there is no need for a grand conspiracy.
      - stonesthrowaway 2y ago
        > I think planned is far to strong a word. It's not. There were literal campaigns across the world to limit childbirth. > I think that instead, it is simply a byproduct of the cultural adoption of hedonism (which places happiness above other human goals) and consumerism (Which places material acquisition as the primary means to achieve ones goals). All culture is planned. > Hedonism and consumerism are pushed by a broad by swath of interests, from industry to government, so there is no need for a grand conspiracy. It's not a "conspiracy". It was open government policy. All over the world. China's 1 child policy being the most prominent and heavy handed approach. But governments around the world implemented a 2 child policy. https://mothership.sg/2018/05/singapore-stop-at-two-children-campaign-successful/ https://mothership.sg/2018/05/singapore-stop-at-two-children... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy In the US, we didn't even have to implement such government because of media control over the masses. The "native" US birth rate has been below replacement since the late 1960s. Thanks to media conditioning. To show you how easily people are manipulated, people now think everything they disagree with is a "conspiracy theory" because the media told them to.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
I'm puzzled how he thought this would encourage women to have children. I should think "forced hysterectomy at 30" would be met with plenty of, "ok, guess I'm just not having kids" rather than "ok, better hurry up and have kids". But also, what, women don't have kids in their 30s ever? This is baffling from every angle.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  They weren't real proposals.

Out of order: > The minister proposed prohibiting women from getting married after the age of 25 and having forced hysterectomies ( uterus removal procedures) at the age of 30. > The politician also suggested barring women from attending college after the age of 18, allegedly in order to concentrate on having more children. Even worse than the headline lead me to believe. > Hyakuta became recognised on the far right of Japanese politics in part because of his best-selling book The Eternal Zero, which was adapted into a movie that glorified kamikaze pilots in the closing days of World War II. Just who we should listen to about ideas. > Sumie Kawakami, a lecturer at Yamanashi Gakuin University and author of a book on gender issues, told This Week in Asia, “I cannot believe that a Japanese politician has said such a thing. I can only see these comments as a call to violence against women.” Yep. > He explained that these concepts were not intended to be taken literally, but rather were presented as a “science-fiction storyline” to start conversation. He added on X that he does not support such extreme actions against women and that his remarks were “extremely harsh.” Sounds like he’s an L, Ton Hubbard type. Time to start a grifting, litigious religion. My friend, who is going through IVF to have a child in her 40s, would love this. Seriously, this man should not have any type of leadership role after this. What a dystopian hellscape in his head.

gigatexal 2y ago
Oh good the world is becoming even more hostile to women. This is exactly what we need! Here’s hoping the Japanese wise up and don’t go along with this insanity.
delichon 2y ago
> He explained that these concepts were not intended to be taken literally, but rather were presented as a “science-fiction storyline” to start conversation. I think we need more space for devil's advocacy. We don't really know what we believe unless we can calmly, rationally argue for it rather than evading it. Modest proposals have a lot to teach. Failing to engage with alternatives to our values makes us more vulnerable to them, not less. The world would not be improved if The Handmaid's Tale had been suppressed, and a non-fictional debate on a similar topic is no different. This example amounts to a gedankenexperiment simulation of an alternative incentive structure. We have a lot to learn about the effect of incentives, and simulations are the best available teacher that doesn't require tuition in blood.
- edflsafoiewq 2y ago
  Well, what do we learn from this modest proposal then?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    The charitable takeaway is the suggestion that Japan should think about more radical social engineering and incentives to promote motherhood, including those that would highlight a sense of urgency or immediacy. Similar concepts mentioned in the interview would be sex education about the real benefits of having children earlier.

codevark 2y ago

[dead]

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Nuance and critical thought is difficult in the current media environment. For those primed to outrage, Hyakuta preceded the entire comment with this quote "Im not saying this is a good solution- I mean, it really isnt good." [1]. It seems like the primary complaint amounts to people not wanting to imagine or think about distasteful topics. I wonder what kind of headlines Jonathan Swift's modest proposal would generate in the modern clickbait era. "Irish influencer apologies for abhorrent suggestion that the poor feed their children to the rich." https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uterus-removal-for-women-at-30-japan-leaders-bizarre-proposal-to-boost-birth-rate-sparks-backlash-7000722 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uterus-removal-for-women-at-...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Shawnecy 2y ago
Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal was satire. Are you suggesting Naoki Hyakuta's comment was as well? I haven't read it that way. And just because he prefixed it with a disclaimer of how bad it was doesn't negate his responsibility to not say stupid things. And it is stupid to think that if you restrict the right for half your population to marry then you'll increase the birth rate.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Im not saying it was satire; it wasn't meant to be humorous or hypocritical. It was an intentionally hyperbolic example to illustrate what the concept of radical social engineering is, and how it could drive a sense of immediacy. Why is it a stupid thing to say? It wasn't proposed as a validated or effective solution. I agree that a marriage ban after 25 probably wouldn't help. The point wasn't to propose viable solutions - they were repeatedly stated to be bad. I agree that the concept could have been presented more clearly, and used an unnecessarily distasteful example. I just dont think that justifies the lying, disinfo, and manufactured outrage about what he said. He clearly was not "advocating for a ban on women marrying after the age of 25 and having their uteruses removed at the age of 30." and didn't "[suggest] barring women from attending college after the age of 18" If the headline read "politician uses horrific example with unclear point" there would be fewer clicks. Lies sell adds and fear drives up engagement.

sneak 2y ago

The latest installment on the systemic denial of equal rights to women in Japanese society. This is a proposed human rights violation, to say nothing of any other aspect of it. The UDHR is clear on this. Why are the types of people making these proposals even given the time of day?

toomuchtodo 2y ago
If the wrong people are in charge, all you can do is take rational actions that protect yourself from suboptimal outcomes (as women are doing). Democracy and governance have a lot of shortfalls, as the evidence shows.

accra4rx 2y ago

This is how political ideology often gains ground: First, an initially outrageous idea is introduced. Over time, this idea is gradually normalized, becoming more acceptable. Eventually, it’s implemented with the support of hidden allies who were quietly aligned all along."

mu53 2y ago
It is still unlikely that this will go anywhere Birthrate issues in east asia come down to short term rewards vs long term rewards. Income/leisure/career vs national security/sustaining ethnic identity. This fixes nothing and helps no one
- stonesthrowaway 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think planned is far to strong a word. I think that instead, it is simply a byproduct of the cultural adoption of hedonism (which places happiness above other human goals) and consumerism (Which places material acquisition as the primary means to achieve ones goals). Hedonism and consumerism are pushed by a broad by swath of interests, from industry to government, so there is no need for a grand conspiracy.
    - stonesthrowaway 2y ago
      > I think planned is far to strong a word. It's not. There were literal campaigns across the world to limit childbirth. > I think that instead, it is simply a byproduct of the cultural adoption of hedonism (which places happiness above other human goals) and consumerism (Which places material acquisition as the primary means to achieve ones goals). All culture is planned. > Hedonism and consumerism are pushed by a broad by swath of interests, from industry to government, so there is no need for a grand conspiracy. It's not a "conspiracy". It was open government policy. All over the world. China's 1 child policy being the most prominent and heavy handed approach. But governments around the world implemented a 2 child policy. https://mothership.sg/2018/05/singapore-stop-at-two-children-campaign-successful/ https://mothership.sg/2018/05/singapore-stop-at-two-children... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy In the US, we didn't even have to implement such government because of media control over the masses. The "native" US birth rate has been below replacement since the late 1960s. Thanks to media conditioning. To show you how easily people are manipulated, people now think everything they disagree with is a "conspiracy theory" because the media told them to.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

VyseofArcadia 2y ago

I'm puzzled how he thought this would encourage women to have children. I should think "forced hysterectomy at 30" would be met with plenty of, "ok, guess I'm just not having kids" rather than "ok, better hurry up and have kids". But also, what, women don't have kids in their 30s ever? This is baffling from every angle.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
They weren't real proposals.