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> The US, especially, seems to by trying to help Ukraine win, but not win so hard that Russia collapses, and it's not obvious that a level of support exists tha

> The US, especially, seems to by trying to help Ukraine win, but not win so hard that Russia collapses, and it's not obvious that a level of support exists that would satisfy both outcomes. What level of US support would allow Ukraine to win by way of Russia collapsing?

jajko 2y ago
As Prighozin's escapade and surprising support from most of russian troops showed it may not require much, rather the right dose at right moment at right place. Absolutely nobody is happy about the war in russia, from the very bottom all the way to the top. So nobody really knows how far the theoretical tipping point is, of course oligarchs with dictator promptly kill any emerging threat.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Absolutely nobody is happy about the war in russia I don't really go on Reddit much anymore these days, but the last time I was on there there were several subreddits where you could find people who were rather gleeful about the affair, trading anecdotes about Russian losses/deaths.
  - beAbU 2y ago
    I find reddit to be a terrible place to gauge general public sentiment on almost any topic. Nowhere else can you find such a high concentration of content openly celebrating the misfortunes of your fellow man. Just look at instantkarma, clevercomebacks, murderedbywords, fightporn, facepalm, leopardsatemyface etc etc etc. Most of the content is at the expense of someone else, and everyone is out to "score points".
    - mistermann 2y ago
      I believe on an absolute scale, the vast majority of Humans are "not too impressive". I wonder if this has something to do with why all Humans have a strong innate aversion to discussing absolute scales outside of physics, and will not talk about the proposition of whether they do.
batushka5 2y ago
Leaving same weapons just on time totaly aside: when Prigozhin started march to Moscow, and roads were dug - US called kremlin to assure "we have nothing in common, stay strong Vlad". Just imagine what if words "If Prigozhin will become leader we will speak with him" came from the White House...
- macintux 2y ago
  Citation? I can’t find any information online about the White House response during the crisis, only a statement afterwards that Biden considered it an internal affair.
rcxdude 2y ago
Full support, i.e. actually throwing everything that Ukraine is asking for. If Russia is resoundingly pushed out of Ukraine, such that they cannot claim any victory at all, it may threaten the stability of Putin's power, given how much he's staked on success with the invasion. How likely this is depends on who you ask, but the US seems to be trying to trying to avoid taking any risks at all there.
- nmeofthestate 2y ago
  There's a bit of a paradox with this analysis: a win for Ukraine means pushing Russia out. But Russia collapses if it's pushed out of Ukraine. Therefore there's no way to support Ukraine enough that they win. Could explain the timid attitude of the US and the mixed messaging - sometimes you could be mistaken for thinking that the US's position is that Ukraine already won by not being fully subjugated. With the new President, who knows what the US's goal will be. Given the messaging from Trump and the head of "DOGE" it's looking ominous for Ukraine. (personally I'm baffled as to why making America great would require rewarding Russian imperialism, so I can't really get my head round their attitudes. Is it just contrarianism?)
  - brabel 2y ago
    > Could explain the timid attitude of the US and the mixed messaging The US has given Ukraine over 80 billion US Dollars, I believe. It also applied every possible sanction it could on Russia, to the point there's nearly nothing left to sanction, from what I have read on the topic. Biden has also been about as clear about the US being on Ukraine's side, for as long as it takes, as he could've been without declaring full on war on Russia. Do you really believe that's a "timid attitude"? The way I see it, the only way for the US to do more is to send troops on the ground, which amounts to full on war with Russia and the prospect of nuclear retaliation.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    But Russia collapses if it's pushed out of Ukraine. No, it just goes back into its corner with its tail between its legs for a while, like all colonial powers do. Whenever they choose to enmesh themselves in conflicts that are definitely not existential to them, or even in their coldly calculated rational interests. Just like the French, the British, and the US have all done, and as it has itself done, countless times (and quite recently).

jajko 2y ago

As Prighozin's escapade and surprising support from most of russian troops showed it may not require much, rather the right dose at right moment at right place. Absolutely nobody is happy about the war in russia, from the very bottom all the way to the top. So nobody really knows how far the theoretical tipping point is, of course oligarchs with dictator promptly kill any emerging threat.

mistermann 2y ago
> Absolutely nobody is happy about the war in russia I don't really go on Reddit much anymore these days, but the last time I was on there there were several subreddits where you could find people who were rather gleeful about the affair, trading anecdotes about Russian losses/deaths.
- beAbU 2y ago
  I find reddit to be a terrible place to gauge general public sentiment on almost any topic. Nowhere else can you find such a high concentration of content openly celebrating the misfortunes of your fellow man. Just look at instantkarma, clevercomebacks, murderedbywords, fightporn, facepalm, leopardsatemyface etc etc etc. Most of the content is at the expense of someone else, and everyone is out to "score points".
  - mistermann 2y ago
    I believe on an absolute scale, the vast majority of Humans are "not too impressive". I wonder if this has something to do with why all Humans have a strong innate aversion to discussing absolute scales outside of physics, and will not talk about the proposition of whether they do.

batushka5 2y ago

Leaving same weapons just on time totaly aside: when Prigozhin started march to Moscow, and roads were dug - US called kremlin to assure "we have nothing in common, stay strong Vlad". Just imagine what if words "If Prigozhin will become leader we will speak with him" came from the White House...

macintux 2y ago
Citation? I can’t find any information online about the White House response during the crisis, only a statement afterwards that Biden considered it an internal affair.

rcxdude 2y ago

Full support, i.e. actually throwing everything that Ukraine is asking for. If Russia is resoundingly pushed out of Ukraine, such that they cannot claim any victory at all, it may threaten the stability of Putin's power, given how much he's staked on success with the invasion. How likely this is depends on who you ask, but the US seems to be trying to trying to avoid taking any risks at all there.

nmeofthestate 2y ago
There's a bit of a paradox with this analysis: a win for Ukraine means pushing Russia out. But Russia collapses if it's pushed out of Ukraine. Therefore there's no way to support Ukraine enough that they win. Could explain the timid attitude of the US and the mixed messaging - sometimes you could be mistaken for thinking that the US's position is that Ukraine already won by not being fully subjugated. With the new President, who knows what the US's goal will be. Given the messaging from Trump and the head of "DOGE" it's looking ominous for Ukraine. (personally I'm baffled as to why making America great would require rewarding Russian imperialism, so I can't really get my head round their attitudes. Is it just contrarianism?)
- brabel 2y ago
  > Could explain the timid attitude of the US and the mixed messaging The US has given Ukraine over 80 billion US Dollars, I believe. It also applied every possible sanction it could on Russia, to the point there's nearly nothing left to sanction, from what I have read on the topic. Biden has also been about as clear about the US being on Ukraine's side, for as long as it takes, as he could've been without declaring full on war on Russia. Do you really believe that's a "timid attitude"? The way I see it, the only way for the US to do more is to send troops on the ground, which amounts to full on war with Russia and the prospect of nuclear retaliation.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  But Russia collapses if it's pushed out of Ukraine. No, it just goes back into its corner with its tail between its legs for a while, like all colonial powers do. Whenever they choose to enmesh themselves in conflicts that are definitely not existential to them, or even in their coldly calculated rational interests. Just like the French, the British, and the US have all done, and as it has itself done, countless times (and quite recently).