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From what you wrote none of the factors seem to be specific to software/CS. But then Japan is quite well known when it comes to physical products. So I wonder w

From what you wrote none of the factors seem to be specific to software/CS. But then Japan is quite well known when it comes to physical products. So I wonder what’s it about software the Japanese culture inhibits.

doctorpangloss 2y ago
I don’t think anything about Japanese culture or generalizations like that tell you much about this. Physical products: you are buying them for their software. That’s why you choose an iPhone over an Android phone. They’re all rectangles with screens. When Sonos screwed up its app it was a crisis because: people pay for the software not the hardware. Is this true about cars? EV design is converging. It will be. CarPlay controversy is a great example: people choose cars that support it. Vanmoofs have a lot of hardware problems but the reason people bought them was software (like location tracking and e-Shifting). So “well known when it comes to physical products,” that may be, but all products are software products. “Software is eating the world” was all about like, replacing human labor or whatever, disruption. Marc Andreesen thinks he was saying something forward looking when it was all backward looking. The story is differentiation and customer choices. Truly forward looking. But are Japanese firms incapable of that? Of course not. Once there was a guy on here who said he had the brilliant idea of using a web browser to make an airplane UI. Listen brother, everybody knows how to write good software. It’s a business strategy not execution problem.
- nemomarx 2y ago
  I mean outside of electronics this isn't really true? A hammer, a comic book, an umbrella you don't buy for software at all.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    The reason you are choosing a particular hammer, comic book or umbrella on Amazon is because of mastery of marketing, logistics, and design software. It sounds ridiculous but what is a software-enabled hammer? A construction robot could be a pretty big deal no? That might not exist today. You might still be buying hammers but everyone will want construction robots.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Some things go obsolete, some remain useful even when they are mostly replaced. All carpenters carry a hammer even though nail guns are used for almost all nails. By contrast I know a professional photography who uses film cameras as decoration - they still work but he doesn't own film for them (he also has a second job because professional photographer isn't nearly the job it used to be before everyone had a camera on them)
  - connicpu 2y ago
    Even some electronics, I don't expect anything beyond a basic BMS (which has the logic baked into the IC) is inside my battery powered drill. All it has is a direction selector switch and a trigger.
  - dowager_dan99 2y ago
    even with electronics. Apple didn't achieve their dominance because of their software - any of the times. The physical products were continually refined and the software used as a lever to help them perfect the experience. When they focused on making the software "perfect" it almost destroyed the company.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      Yeah dude. The iPhone continues to be chosen for its superior software. It absolutely became dominant because of the software. I mean they’re all black rectangles. Black rectangles with capacitive screens existed before the iPhone. A good mobile browser didn’t. This is coming from someone who owned a Zaurus, which had the closest thing to a decent browser, NetAccess, and a grid of icons touchable Home Screen all the same. You are underplaying how groundbreaking the software was. This is one set of facts, totally correct, that you are talking about: iPhones are made in China. They cost $770 or so with tax. They make a 55% margin (or whatever) per phone. Consumers prefer premium materials like titanium, and they don’t prefer things like replaceable batteries. Here is another set of facts: Everyone’s phones are made in China. But of course iOS is made in the US. Consumers are choosing not between a titanium and aluminum phone, but almost always, they are choosing between Android and iOS The margin on the software is like 99% Apple News, the App Store, etc have a very powerful DRM scheme, where Apple is one of the only companies, besides maybe Sony, where you cannot pirate things they sell for the iPhone like services subscriptions, game IAP and extra iCloud storage. The price of the iPhone isn’t its $770 sticker but the LTV of the owner. This is a big deal because the second set of completely and utterly true facts is why Apple is the richest company in the world. And then you look at NVIDIA, another really rich company but which people feel less passionate about, and unequivocally, people choose NVIDIA because of its software, because of CUDA, which is why you can’t “just” add more VRAM, which is something else that everyone wants and would be a key differentiator, yet for some reason doesn’t manifest in the market. This matters to firms everywhere not just Japan. If you can’t make 99% margin software someone else will. And consumers LIKE software. So everything you are saying is true but it doesn’t really disagree with me.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hulitu 2y ago
    You should see Windows 10 or 11. The best hammer out there.
- strus 2y ago
  Software in Japanese cars is terrible from European point of view, yet people are buying them because of the hardware (reliable engines).
  - physicsguy 2y ago
    The software in my Skoda Scala and my Vauxhall/Opel Corsa is terrible as well, but like most new-ish Toyota's, all of them support Apple Play so it doesn't matter.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      The Honda software is mediocre as well but I suspect any sensible automaker realizes that most consumers are using Car Play or Google Play so they put some junior engineers on a checklist item and call it a day.
      - generic92034 2y ago
        I wonder when cars become inoperable without using a smartphone.
        ghaff 2y ago
        People had paper maps and often precise directions that they had on their laps or a human navigator using those maps or directions. They stopped at gas stations to ask for directions (or didn't--guys refusing to stop to ask for directions was something of a trope). So obviously they managed but probably in ways a lot of people today wouldn't find satisfactory. How did you manage before smartphones and even email/text for meeting people and generally coordinating activities generally? People managed.
        bluGill 2y ago
        That is a different question. I can use my car without a smartphone. However if I buy a new car will I be able to use it if I break my smartphone?
- tivert 2y ago
  >> From what you wrote none of the factors seem to be specific to software/CS. But then Japan is quite well known when it comes to physical products. So I wonder what’s it about software the Japanese culture inhibits. > Physical products: you are buying them for their software. That’s why you choose an iPhone over an Android phone. They’re all rectangles with screens. > ... > So “well known when it comes to physical products,” that may be, but all products are software products. You're just plain wrong. Most physical products have no software, so you're not addressing the very real question (which is basically "Why does Japan produce such perfect physical products, but suck so bad at software? Why hasn't the attention to detail transferred?"). As an aside, it's actually really interesting to be how you could so wrong in this particular way. It kind of dovetails with a vague pet theory of mine that (roughly, very roughly) software engineers are sometimes so enamored with computers they can have a weird cognitive distortion where they see computers as everything (so a computer is the solution to every problem, and they're an expert at everything because everything's a computer or should be). ---- As my contribution to answering about physical products. I met a woman once, while I was traveling, who spent a couple months in Japan. She said that Japanese cosmetics are very good and relative cheap because Japanese consumers are very picky and have very high standards. Maybe the reason is Japanese consumers just have higher expectations for physical products, but someone got enured to badly designed software.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    > You're just plain wrong... Most physical products have no software I'm just trying to be thought provoking. I can't generalize about whole cultures, other than to say, no one culture owns excellence. Down this thread people are talking about stuff like, I don't know, home goods, or you're talking about cosmetics. Are cosmetics software? Well the people who sell the most cosmetics have to master digital marketing. "Chinesium" on Amazon is mastering software. It doesn't look that way. But the reason you are choosing things on Amazon is because of fulfillment software, advertising software, logistics software, that specifically the manufacturers of those products have all mastered. They are really smart sellers. The reason you choose a particular cosmetic is due to mastery of advertising and logistics software. You will never buy a cosmetic that isn't marketed by software. Sure there's this box of, software on hardware means the thing that draws the pictures on an LCD screen. And indeed a lot of things that don't need LCD screens end up with them, and you know what? Consumers choose them. But that inside-the-box thinking aside, anything that reaches an industrial scale where you are able to buy it in many stores in America depends on mastery of some kind of software. The best of those choices happen to master both the logistics and the end-user software, whatever that may mean.
- dr-detroit 2y ago
  [dead]
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Listen brother, everybody knows how to write good software But they are very shy. /s
itronitron 2y ago
Precision manufacturing, such as for ballpoint pens and Gundam figures, will more readily show defects, so that might be the reason.
kippel 2y ago
You are right, it is not specific to software, just wanted to add more context and also, because I don't know the answer and I believe there are multiple factors, but my two cents: a mix of history and culture. By the time software came around, Japan already had a well stablished manufacturing industry that had a reputation for quality (this wasn't always the case). Software was something totally new and wasn't considered important, why? perhaps management didn't understand it or didn't know how to handle it and did nothing. The above made a career in software not very attractive compared to other industries. Since then, companies struggle to get good developers, who can move to more attractive sectors or countries than trying to change things within Japan with its rigid hierarchy. How things move in Japan is generally by someone breaking the status quo and the rest following if it is a success. That was the case with Toyota in manufacturing for example. For software it hasn't happened. Another problem IMHO is that code is invisible to users. If the app works, people don't care if the code is beautifully made or not, and without consumer pressure, management doesn't care either. Compare that with the complains they'll get if a physical object had the sightless defect. Finally, there is a higher entry barrier for physical products than software. Any teenager can build an app in her bedroom, it is a different story to develop a bullet train. Inefficiencies and slow decision processes in manufacturing are less obvious than in tech (though manufacturing industries in Japan are struggling as well because of this), and Japan simply isn't competitive in this area, making it less attractive to invest. And perhaps, the most important: People got used to it and don't have higher expectations.

doctorpangloss 2y ago

I don’t think anything about Japanese culture or generalizations like that tell you much about this. Physical products: you are buying them for their software. That’s why you choose an iPhone over an Android phone. They’re all rectangles with screens. When Sonos screwed up its app it was a crisis because: people pay for the software not the hardware. Is this true about cars? EV design is converging. It will be. CarPlay controversy is a great example: people choose cars that support it. Vanmoofs have a lot of hardware problems but the reason people bought them was software (like location tracking and e-Shifting). So “well known when it comes to physical products,” that may be, but all products are software products. “Software is eating the world” was all about like, replacing human labor or whatever, disruption. Marc Andreesen thinks he was saying something forward looking when it was all backward looking. The story is differentiation and customer choices. Truly forward looking. But are Japanese firms incapable of that? Of course not. Once there was a guy on here who said he had the brilliant idea of using a web browser to make an airplane UI. Listen brother, everybody knows how to write good software. It’s a business strategy not execution problem.

nemomarx 2y ago
I mean outside of electronics this isn't really true? A hammer, a comic book, an umbrella you don't buy for software at all.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  The reason you are choosing a particular hammer, comic book or umbrella on Amazon is because of mastery of marketing, logistics, and design software. It sounds ridiculous but what is a software-enabled hammer? A construction robot could be a pretty big deal no? That might not exist today. You might still be buying hammers but everyone will want construction robots.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Some things go obsolete, some remain useful even when they are mostly replaced. All carpenters carry a hammer even though nail guns are used for almost all nails. By contrast I know a professional photography who uses film cameras as decoration - they still work but he doesn't own film for them (he also has a second job because professional photographer isn't nearly the job it used to be before everyone had a camera on them)
- connicpu 2y ago
  Even some electronics, I don't expect anything beyond a basic BMS (which has the logic baked into the IC) is inside my battery powered drill. All it has is a direction selector switch and a trigger.
- dowager_dan99 2y ago
  even with electronics. Apple didn't achieve their dominance because of their software - any of the times. The physical products were continually refined and the software used as a lever to help them perfect the experience. When they focused on making the software "perfect" it almost destroyed the company.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Yeah dude. The iPhone continues to be chosen for its superior software. It absolutely became dominant because of the software. I mean they’re all black rectangles. Black rectangles with capacitive screens existed before the iPhone. A good mobile browser didn’t. This is coming from someone who owned a Zaurus, which had the closest thing to a decent browser, NetAccess, and a grid of icons touchable Home Screen all the same. You are underplaying how groundbreaking the software was. This is one set of facts, totally correct, that you are talking about: iPhones are made in China. They cost $770 or so with tax. They make a 55% margin (or whatever) per phone. Consumers prefer premium materials like titanium, and they don’t prefer things like replaceable batteries. Here is another set of facts: Everyone’s phones are made in China. But of course iOS is made in the US. Consumers are choosing not between a titanium and aluminum phone, but almost always, they are choosing between Android and iOS The margin on the software is like 99% Apple News, the App Store, etc have a very powerful DRM scheme, where Apple is one of the only companies, besides maybe Sony, where you cannot pirate things they sell for the iPhone like services subscriptions, game IAP and extra iCloud storage. The price of the iPhone isn’t its $770 sticker but the LTV of the owner. This is a big deal because the second set of completely and utterly true facts is why Apple is the richest company in the world. And then you look at NVIDIA, another really rich company but which people feel less passionate about, and unequivocally, people choose NVIDIA because of its software, because of CUDA, which is why you can’t “just” add more VRAM, which is something else that everyone wants and would be a key differentiator, yet for some reason doesn’t manifest in the market. This matters to firms everywhere not just Japan. If you can’t make 99% margin software someone else will. And consumers LIKE software. So everything you are saying is true but it doesn’t really disagree with me.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hulitu 2y ago
  You should see Windows 10 or 11. The best hammer out there.
strus 2y ago
Software in Japanese cars is terrible from European point of view, yet people are buying them because of the hardware (reliable engines).
- physicsguy 2y ago
  The software in my Skoda Scala and my Vauxhall/Opel Corsa is terrible as well, but like most new-ish Toyota's, all of them support Apple Play so it doesn't matter.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    The Honda software is mediocre as well but I suspect any sensible automaker realizes that most consumers are using Car Play or Google Play so they put some junior engineers on a checklist item and call it a day.
    - generic92034 2y ago
      I wonder when cars become inoperable without using a smartphone.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        People had paper maps and often precise directions that they had on their laps or a human navigator using those maps or directions. They stopped at gas stations to ask for directions (or didn't--guys refusing to stop to ask for directions was something of a trope). So obviously they managed but probably in ways a lot of people today wouldn't find satisfactory. How did you manage before smartphones and even email/text for meeting people and generally coordinating activities generally? People managed.
        bluGill 2y ago
        That is a different question. I can use my car without a smartphone. However if I buy a new car will I be able to use it if I break my smartphone?
tivert 2y ago
>> From what you wrote none of the factors seem to be specific to software/CS. But then Japan is quite well known when it comes to physical products. So I wonder what’s it about software the Japanese culture inhibits. > Physical products: you are buying them for their software. That’s why you choose an iPhone over an Android phone. They’re all rectangles with screens. > ... > So “well known when it comes to physical products,” that may be, but all products are software products. You're just plain wrong. Most physical products have no software, so you're not addressing the very real question (which is basically "Why does Japan produce such perfect physical products, but suck so bad at software? Why hasn't the attention to detail transferred?"). As an aside, it's actually really interesting to be how you could so wrong in this particular way. It kind of dovetails with a vague pet theory of mine that (roughly, very roughly) software engineers are sometimes so enamored with computers they can have a weird cognitive distortion where they see computers as everything (so a computer is the solution to every problem, and they're an expert at everything because everything's a computer or should be). ---- As my contribution to answering about physical products. I met a woman once, while I was traveling, who spent a couple months in Japan. She said that Japanese cosmetics are very good and relative cheap because Japanese consumers are very picky and have very high standards. Maybe the reason is Japanese consumers just have higher expectations for physical products, but someone got enured to badly designed software.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  > You're just plain wrong... Most physical products have no software I'm just trying to be thought provoking. I can't generalize about whole cultures, other than to say, no one culture owns excellence. Down this thread people are talking about stuff like, I don't know, home goods, or you're talking about cosmetics. Are cosmetics software? Well the people who sell the most cosmetics have to master digital marketing. "Chinesium" on Amazon is mastering software. It doesn't look that way. But the reason you are choosing things on Amazon is because of fulfillment software, advertising software, logistics software, that specifically the manufacturers of those products have all mastered. They are really smart sellers. The reason you choose a particular cosmetic is due to mastery of advertising and logistics software. You will never buy a cosmetic that isn't marketed by software. Sure there's this box of, software on hardware means the thing that draws the pictures on an LCD screen. And indeed a lot of things that don't need LCD screens end up with them, and you know what? Consumers choose them. But that inside-the-box thinking aside, anything that reaches an industrial scale where you are able to buy it in many stores in America depends on mastery of some kind of software. The best of those choices happen to master both the logistics and the end-user software, whatever that may mean.
dr-detroit 2y ago
[dead]
hulitu 2y ago
> Listen brother, everybody knows how to write good software But they are very shy. /s

itronitron 2y ago

Precision manufacturing, such as for ballpoint pens and Gundam figures, will more readily show defects, so that might be the reason.

kippel 2y ago

You are right, it is not specific to software, just wanted to add more context and also, because I don't know the answer and I believe there are multiple factors, but my two cents: a mix of history and culture. By the time software came around, Japan already had a well stablished manufacturing industry that had a reputation for quality (this wasn't always the case). Software was something totally new and wasn't considered important, why? perhaps management didn't understand it or didn't know how to handle it and did nothing. The above made a career in software not very attractive compared to other industries. Since then, companies struggle to get good developers, who can move to more attractive sectors or countries than trying to change things within Japan with its rigid hierarchy. How things move in Japan is generally by someone breaking the status quo and the rest following if it is a success. That was the case with Toyota in manufacturing for example. For software it hasn't happened. Another problem IMHO is that code is invisible to users. If the app works, people don't care if the code is beautifully made or not, and without consumer pressure, management doesn't care either. Compare that with the complains they'll get if a physical object had the sightless defect. Finally, there is a higher entry barrier for physical products than software. Any teenager can build an app in her bedroom, it is a different story to develop a bullet train. Inefficiencies and slow decision processes in manufacturing are less obvious than in tech (though manufacturing industries in Japan are struggling as well because of this), and Japan simply isn't competitive in this area, making it less attractive to invest. And perhaps, the most important: People got used to it and don't have higher expectations.