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> Paypal - like Apple Pay & Google Pay - require you to authenticate into your account, which takes away the "wasn't me" deniability (if you pay _with paypal_ a

> Paypal - like Apple Pay & Google Pay - require you to authenticate into your account, which takes away the "wasn't me" deniability (if you pay _with paypal_ as opposed to "via paypal, with credit card"). Yeah, but most Americans who frequently deal with foreign expenses don’t want to pay with PayPal for them, since they are much more expensive for currency conversion than the traveler-focused US credit cards, don’t give the same legal protections to the cardholder in case of merchant misbehavior or data breach, don’t get covered by cardholder benefits like insurance, and don’t give reward points like the good US cards. > It's funny you bring up tourists - because these are exactly the people who had to get cards with PIN (when their banks didn't offer them), or risk being unable to use them in Europe. So the fact that they "want to" doesn't mean that the merchants do, in fact, bend over backwards to allow them - it was the US tourists that had to adapt. So it's possible! My life is a living counterexample to what you say is necessary for US tourists in Europe. I’ve been living in Germany for over 2 years now on various short-term immigration statuses (and yes legally despite the total duration). The main way I pay for most non-invoiced expenses both online and in person is a US-issued credit card with no PIN, only frictionless-flow 3-D Secure (no life customer option), and no foreign transaction or currency conversion fee. It works fine in pretty much every case I’ve encountered in Germany where cards are accepted at all, aside from sometimes having to sign. I do pay certain expenses by SEPA bank transfer or direct debit, but mostly medical or government expenses, rent, and certain peer to peer payments. Cards with no tap to pay and no chip are a problem in Europe, but both of those are widely available in the US now. > I know the situation in US, I don't believe it's a problem of "cost" or "widespread use" (e.g. haven't heard about beggars taking credit card in the US - the card usage is far more widespread in Europe). You’re overgeneralizing about Europe and misgeneralizing about the US. Here in Germany, international cards like Visa and Mastercard were not that widely accepted before the COVID-19 pandemic, and even now most Germans don’t hold an actual credit card. Beggars certainly don’t tend to take cards in Germany, though maybe they do in some of the most cashless European countries. In the US, sure beggars don’t typically take cards there either, although I’ve heard of isolated examples of it happening. Looking overall rather than at atypical subsets like beggars, cards are indeed far more widely held in the US than in Europe, especially true credit cards but also the international type of debit card with a Visa (not Electron) or Mastercard (not Maestro) logo that can be used as if it were a credit card. If you check statistics, be sure to look up statistics on how widely cards are held (and which types), not how widely cash is used. Many US people frequently use both cards and cash. > Card fraud is not curbed in the US because there's no political will to do it, not because it's not possible or it's too expensive. Why is there no political will to do it? Yes, it’s too expensive, a little bit for the merchants but especially for the banks. US merchants simply charge high enough prices to cover high credit card processing fees that let the banks eat the fraud (and/or pay rewards to their good customers). Customers don’t mind because they’re quite strongly legally protected, and the customers who don’t benefit from credit card rewards don’t feel ripped off because the relevant portion of the merchant cost structure is built into the listed prices. Nobody with sufficient influence and awareness of the situation has an incentive to change the system. Even tap to pay was hard to get adopted in the US. Most initial attempts failed and were removed by the banks. It only became common once some major public transit systems started accepted it, and helped along by how the typical chip readers in use in the US at first were annoyingly slow. > If there was a PSD2-equivalent law, all banks would quickly implement it and y'all would wonder why this wasn't done sooner. If there were a PSD2-equivalent law, it would have a long transition period, banks or merchants would probably sue over it, there might be delays, and it might get watered down or repealed. But yes, if the banks and merchants do go along with it, a law like that would be necessary to prevent competitive disadvantage as compared to the banks and merchants that wouldn’t voluntarily choose to do it.

virgilp 2y ago
Germany is one of the most conservative societies in EU, they still insist on cash. But even so, I'm surprised you can do large-value payments without PIN; even if you have a contactless card, those are limited to small-ish sums (less than 100E I believe) - so yeah you can buy a croissant, maybe you can even buy lunch in most restaurants - but it still can randomly ask for PIN on some expenses, AND it always asks for large expenses. > Why is there no political will to do it? I don't know but I don't think there's a simple answer. Certainly not "it's too expensive", US can afford it. There's a cultural element to it, there's probably lobby of some interested parties. With cards in particular, it's also consumer apathy (as you say, people don't care - so no strong lobby is needed because no real demand for change exists). And maybe other reasons. But I don't think the status quo holds because it's too hard/expensive to change - it holds because there's not enough demand to change it. A very simple way to change all this would be a law that moves liability to the bank (instead of merchant) in case of fraud. Sure banks would hate it (which is why it won't happen), but also if it happened, they'd then have actual incentives to prevent fraud/ would need to start seriously contemplating "what is more expensive".
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  > Germany is one of the most conservative societies in EU, they still insist on cash. This has changed a lot since the pandemic, but only since then, and cash-only places are still common. However even many of the cards that people do now carry in Germany aren't true credit cards, unlike in the US. (True credit cards are however now accepted in most places that accept any cards, at least in Berlin, with a few exceptions.) Germans are very hesitant to accept even the level of debt that is involved in charging to a credit card which one pays off in full by the monthly due date, which doesn't usually involve paying interest. > But even so, I'm surprised you can do large-value payments without PIN; even if you have a contactless card, those are limited to small-ish sums (less than 100E I believe) - so yeah you can buy a croissant, maybe you can even buy lunch in most restaurants - but it still can randomly ask for PIN on some expenses, AND it always asks for large expenses. You're probably describing how things typically work for cards issued in your country, but that primarily depends on the issuer's policies, mostly not those at the point of sale. I'm familiar with what you describe from having lived in Canada before, where I did have some cards issued in Canada as well as my US-issued ones. But that's not the way it works for US-issued cards. There isn't even a PIN for my card to prompt for if they wanted to prompt for one, since the card doesn't support that functionality; the most they can do, and this sometimes happens, is prompt the staff to ask for my signature. Some of the time the staff actually does ask me to sign, other times they don't. I think they can also ask me to insert the chip, but most of the times this occurs (not all), it's the merchant trying to upsell me on a marked-up currency conversion option instead of just letting my bank convert for free. (Even for the many US cards which do charge for currency conversion, the typical merchant conversion mark-up is still higher than what the cards would charge, and then the cards often charge their fee anyway since it's still a foreign transaction regardless of currency.) As for the 100 euro limit, I'm surprised if such a low limit still exists in your country. For the Canadian cards where I had a similar $100 or $200 limit, they raised the limit during the pandemic and never lowered it. My US card has no relevant such limit - I frequently tap for amounts above 200 euros at the pharmacy, and recently tapped a 1500 euro charge at a veterinary surgical clinic. Some of these ask me to sign, but generally not to insert the chip, and definitely no PIN. All in Germany, yes. > I don't know but I don't think there's a simple answer. Certainly not "it's too expensive", US can afford it. "Too expensive" doesn't always mean "too expensive to afford if it were to be prioritized". It can mean "too expensive to justify the expense". Which I think is in fact true in the US, at least given the various risks, incentives, and costs of the various parties involved. > With cards in particular, it's also consumer apathy It's not just consumer apathy - US laws are so protective of consumers who are victims of fraud that consumers in the US almost never lose any money or much money to card fraud, especially credit card fraud but even many cases of debit card fraud. Unlike on most topics, US laws in this area are far more consumer-protective than EU laws. > But I don't think the status quo holds because it's too hard/expensive to change - it holds because there's not enough demand to change it. Which is another way to say it's too hard/expensive to change. That is, it's too hard/expensive to be worth changing, not too hard/expensive to be possible to change. > A very simple way to change all this would be a law that moves liability to the bank (instead of merchant) in case of fraud. Sure banks would hate it (which is why it won't happen), but also if it happened, they'd then have actual incentives to prevent fraud/ would need to start seriously contemplating "what is more expensive". They'd also very successfully lobby to delay, weaken, or repeal that law, while making the cheapest possible noises toward compliance in the interim. Doing so is far cheaper than proactively complying in good faith.

virgilp 2y ago

Germany is one of the most conservative societies in EU, they still insist on cash. But even so, I'm surprised you can do large-value payments without PIN; even if you have a contactless card, those are limited to small-ish sums (less than 100E I believe) - so yeah you can buy a croissant, maybe you can even buy lunch in most restaurants - but it still can randomly ask for PIN on some expenses, AND it always asks for large expenses. > Why is there no political will to do it? I don't know but I don't think there's a simple answer. Certainly not "it's too expensive", US can afford it. There's a cultural element to it, there's probably lobby of some interested parties. With cards in particular, it's also consumer apathy (as you say, people don't care - so no strong lobby is needed because no real demand for change exists). And maybe other reasons. But I don't think the status quo holds because it's too hard/expensive to change - it holds because there's not enough demand to change it. A very simple way to change all this would be a law that moves liability to the bank (instead of merchant) in case of fraud. Sure banks would hate it (which is why it won't happen), but also if it happened, they'd then have actual incentives to prevent fraud/ would need to start seriously contemplating "what is more expensive".

jkaplowitz 2y ago
> Germany is one of the most conservative societies in EU, they still insist on cash. This has changed a lot since the pandemic, but only since then, and cash-only places are still common. However even many of the cards that people do now carry in Germany aren't true credit cards, unlike in the US. (True credit cards are however now accepted in most places that accept any cards, at least in Berlin, with a few exceptions.) Germans are very hesitant to accept even the level of debt that is involved in charging to a credit card which one pays off in full by the monthly due date, which doesn't usually involve paying interest. > But even so, I'm surprised you can do large-value payments without PIN; even if you have a contactless card, those are limited to small-ish sums (less than 100E I believe) - so yeah you can buy a croissant, maybe you can even buy lunch in most restaurants - but it still can randomly ask for PIN on some expenses, AND it always asks for large expenses. You're probably describing how things typically work for cards issued in your country, but that primarily depends on the issuer's policies, mostly not those at the point of sale. I'm familiar with what you describe from having lived in Canada before, where I did have some cards issued in Canada as well as my US-issued ones. But that's not the way it works for US-issued cards. There isn't even a PIN for my card to prompt for if they wanted to prompt for one, since the card doesn't support that functionality; the most they can do, and this sometimes happens, is prompt the staff to ask for my signature. Some of the time the staff actually does ask me to sign, other times they don't. I think they can also ask me to insert the chip, but most of the times this occurs (not all), it's the merchant trying to upsell me on a marked-up currency conversion option instead of just letting my bank convert for free. (Even for the many US cards which do charge for currency conversion, the typical merchant conversion mark-up is still higher than what the cards would charge, and then the cards often charge their fee anyway since it's still a foreign transaction regardless of currency.) As for the 100 euro limit, I'm surprised if such a low limit still exists in your country. For the Canadian cards where I had a similar $100 or $200 limit, they raised the limit during the pandemic and never lowered it. My US card has no relevant such limit - I frequently tap for amounts above 200 euros at the pharmacy, and recently tapped a 1500 euro charge at a veterinary surgical clinic. Some of these ask me to sign, but generally not to insert the chip, and definitely no PIN. All in Germany, yes. > I don't know but I don't think there's a simple answer. Certainly not "it's too expensive", US can afford it. "Too expensive" doesn't always mean "too expensive to afford if it were to be prioritized". It can mean "too expensive to justify the expense". Which I think is in fact true in the US, at least given the various risks, incentives, and costs of the various parties involved. > With cards in particular, it's also consumer apathy It's not just consumer apathy - US laws are so protective of consumers who are victims of fraud that consumers in the US almost never lose any money or much money to card fraud, especially credit card fraud but even many cases of debit card fraud. Unlike on most topics, US laws in this area are far more consumer-protective than EU laws. > But I don't think the status quo holds because it's too hard/expensive to change - it holds because there's not enough demand to change it. Which is another way to say it's too hard/expensive to change. That is, it's too hard/expensive to be worth changing, not too hard/expensive to be possible to change. > A very simple way to change all this would be a law that moves liability to the bank (instead of merchant) in case of fraud. Sure banks would hate it (which is why it won't happen), but also if it happened, they'd then have actual incentives to prevent fraud/ would need to start seriously contemplating "what is more expensive". They'd also very successfully lobby to delay, weaken, or repeal that law, while making the cheapest possible noises toward compliance in the interim. Doing so is far cheaper than proactively complying in good faith.