7 ms·

Nobody ever mentions this area was wilderness, because the invading Muscovites totally decimated indigenous population known as Hakassi. For various reason, th

Nobody ever mentions this area was wilderness, because the invading Muscovites totally decimated indigenous population known as Hakassi. For various reason, the Finnish version of wikipedia is more informative. https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Hakassit?_x_tr_sl=fi&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Hakassit?_x_t...

cpursley 2y ago
I hate to tell you this, but most of the major powers did all sorts horrible things during that time period. Especially my people group, who were arguable the most effective at it. And fwiw, the late Soviets tried to course correct regarding ethnic groups. My wife (half ethnic Komi, another Finnish group), was taught that language in school. Don’t get me wrong, the Finish and Finnish ethnic groups (and many others) got a raw deal, but it’s no reason for the blanket Russophobia that we see on hn so often.
- timonoko 2y ago
  Ukrainian what? "Noko" was a clan and castle year 1000 in Western Finland.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Nice to know, thanks and sorry for the mistake! Finish culture is one of my favorites and Helsinki is amazing. Ditto on sauna culture.
- tim333 2y ago
  >blanket Russophobia Sure most major powers did horrible things in the past. But now? How many other major powers are launching bloody invasions of their neighbors?
  - cpursley 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st-century_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_Kingdom#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United... Thankfully we got to keep SWIFT and our McDonalds since those invasions were all totally justified...
  - AvocadoPanic 2y ago
    Odd description of intervening in a civil war manufactured by western war mongers to support ethnic Russians.
    - tim333 2y ago
      Dunno. See "Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine" https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strel...
      - AvocadoPanic 2y ago
        See https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html 2008 Classified Cable describing potential future Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.
        dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
        Ah OK, that settles it - Putin is innocent.
        tharmas 2y ago
        Ok, we won't confuse you with the facts, as your mind is already made up. You've a victim of Western propaganda. Can't you see that?
        LunaSea 2y ago
        Compared to the Russian propaganda you are consuming and spouting?
        2y ago
  - tharmas 2y ago
    The USA has 700 military bases world wide. Russia, China, India have 15 bases. Who's spreading their tentacles around the world? Iraq invasion? Syria ongoing occupation? WMDs? Assisting Israel's War in Gaza? Come on. Please stop this Western bias nonsense. And the Ukraine Conflict didnt start in Feb 2022.
    - LunaSea 2y ago
      > Syria ongoing occupation? Russia did so too. > WMDs? Russia has those. > Assisting Israel's War in Gaza? Russia is assisting Hamas and Houthis. > And the Ukraine Conflict didnt start in Feb 2022. No, it did in 2014 when ... surprise, surprise, Russia invaded Crimea, a part of Ukraine.
      - protomolecule 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - tharmas 2y ago
        WMDs was referring to the lies USA told to invade Iraq.
      - tharmas 2y ago
        Russia is in Syria at request of Syrian regime. USA still occupies the oil fields in Syria. Not at all comparable in intent is itm Crimea is Russian. The people who live there are Russian and were glad to be part of Russia. Surely you know the history of Ukraine? Do you know why Zhelensky was elected leader of Ukraine in the first place and what happened afterward?
        aguaviva 2y ago
        The Crimea is multiethnic. It belongs to all of its pre-war citizens equally. Its sovereignty is Ukrainian.
      - aziaziazi 2y ago
        Taking the risk of receiving the same fate as Protomolecule, but didn’t understand why he’s flagged > Russia did so too Didn’t Russia was indeed invited while others partygoer wasn’t? I’m more into <div> than politics but I do listen western news and it’s also my understanding of the events, even if bitter (INHM) > On 30 September 2015, Russia launched a military intervention in Syria after a request by the government of Bashar al-Assad for military support in its fight against the Syrian opposition and Islamic State (IS) in the Syrian civil war. I know it’s Wikipedia 0. The two sources Al Jazeera 1 and Los Angeles Times 2 seems to confirm it. 0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_... 1 http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/russian-carries-air-strikes-syria-150930133155190.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/russian-carries-air-st... 2 https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-kremlin-oks-troops-20150930-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-kremlin-oks-troop...
- mindslight 2y ago
  What is the origin of this word "Russophobia" ? It seems like a recent invention trying to take advantage of the general western progressive concern of xenophobia to encourage weakness, similar to how their propagandists have re-purposed and abused general anti-war sentiment stemming from the Iraq debacle. But I'm curious to know if it's even older and was perhaps used as some kind of powertalk during Soviet times when a new area was being subjugated. "You just don't want us here because you're scared of us".
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Goes back a while, there's even a book on the topic: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russophobia https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russop...
    - mindslight 2y ago
      > First published January 1, 2016 That's quite recent, and the lead-in's focus on Putin "hysteria" is suspicious. The whole meme just feels an awful lot like the "American" neofascists' persecution complex, and that book seems right in line. Most certainly there is anti-Russia bias in the West that waxes and wanes - like during that entire Cold War. But extrapolating this general difference of perspective to some narrative that it's all unjust "phobia" is just disingenuous.
      - cpursley 2y ago
        Sounds like you're just looking for excuses to justify bigotry and/or collective punishment (not a western value, btw).
        mindslight 2y ago
        Seems like more superficial appeals to Western values that end up falling apart under the slightest scrutiny. I'm out. Enjoy the great explanatory power of your phobias.
    - 2y ago
tim333 2y ago
Your link has few details of indigenous population decimation. The "Indigenous peoples of Siberia" Wikipedia link seems to have more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia
riehwvfbk 2y ago
Your link does not say what your summary says. The Wiki article just says the Hakassi joined the Soviet revolution (presumably happily) and moved from nomadic to modern livelihoods. No mention of a massacre. Now, I am not saying that a massacre didn't happen. But it also didn't happen they way you are implying. This wasn't "the Communists oppressed poor tribesmen" but rather "imperialistic 18th century power steamrolls some natives". I can name a few more imperialistic powers of the period that did the same or worse. Also, the Hakassi culture is descended from Mongols, not Finns. Why are they more Finnish than Russian? That's right, because they are not. In fact, Hakassia is nowhere near Finland (it's in the middle of Siberia), but linking to the Finnish Wikipedia makes it seem like another little European country attacked by the Ogre Horde. Lastly, you say that tiny Finnish stub article has more details than the Russian Wikipedia, and that is simply not true. In addition to the main article, there is a link from it specifically to a standalone article about Hakassia's inclusion into Russia, which is described as "painful": https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BA_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8 https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%.... The events are covered in great detail starting with the 1600s. Does this explain why your comment is mostly Russophobia?
protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]

cpursley 2y ago

I hate to tell you this, but most of the major powers did all sorts horrible things during that time period. Especially my people group, who were arguable the most effective at it. And fwiw, the late Soviets tried to course correct regarding ethnic groups. My wife (half ethnic Komi, another Finnish group), was taught that language in school. Don’t get me wrong, the Finish and Finnish ethnic groups (and many others) got a raw deal, but it’s no reason for the blanket Russophobia that we see on hn so often.

timonoko 2y ago
Ukrainian what? "Noko" was a clan and castle year 1000 in Western Finland.
- cpursley 2y ago
  Nice to know, thanks and sorry for the mistake! Finish culture is one of my favorites and Helsinki is amazing. Ditto on sauna culture.
tim333 2y ago
>blanket Russophobia Sure most major powers did horrible things in the past. But now? How many other major powers are launching bloody invasions of their neighbors?
- cpursley 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st-century_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_Kingdom#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United... Thankfully we got to keep SWIFT and our McDonalds since those invasions were all totally justified...
- AvocadoPanic 2y ago
  Odd description of intervening in a civil war manufactured by western war mongers to support ethnic Russians.
  - tim333 2y ago
    Dunno. See "Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine" https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strel...
    - AvocadoPanic 2y ago
      See https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html 2008 Classified Cable describing potential future Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
        Ah OK, that settles it - Putin is innocent.
        tharmas 2y ago
        Ok, we won't confuse you with the facts, as your mind is already made up. You've a victim of Western propaganda. Can't you see that?
        LunaSea 2y ago
        Compared to the Russian propaganda you are consuming and spouting?
        2y ago
- tharmas 2y ago
  The USA has 700 military bases world wide. Russia, China, India have 15 bases. Who's spreading their tentacles around the world? Iraq invasion? Syria ongoing occupation? WMDs? Assisting Israel's War in Gaza? Come on. Please stop this Western bias nonsense. And the Ukraine Conflict didnt start in Feb 2022.
  - LunaSea 2y ago
    > Syria ongoing occupation? Russia did so too. > WMDs? Russia has those. > Assisting Israel's War in Gaza? Russia is assisting Hamas and Houthis. > And the Ukraine Conflict didnt start in Feb 2022. No, it did in 2014 when ... surprise, surprise, Russia invaded Crimea, a part of Ukraine.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - tharmas 2y ago
      WMDs was referring to the lies USA told to invade Iraq.
    - tharmas 2y ago
      Russia is in Syria at request of Syrian regime. USA still occupies the oil fields in Syria. Not at all comparable in intent is itm Crimea is Russian. The people who live there are Russian and were glad to be part of Russia. Surely you know the history of Ukraine? Do you know why Zhelensky was elected leader of Ukraine in the first place and what happened afterward?
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        The Crimea is multiethnic. It belongs to all of its pre-war citizens equally. Its sovereignty is Ukrainian.
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
      Taking the risk of receiving the same fate as Protomolecule, but didn’t understand why he’s flagged > Russia did so too Didn’t Russia was indeed invited while others partygoer wasn’t? I’m more into <div> than politics but I do listen western news and it’s also my understanding of the events, even if bitter (INHM) > On 30 September 2015, Russia launched a military intervention in Syria after a request by the government of Bashar al-Assad for military support in its fight against the Syrian opposition and Islamic State (IS) in the Syrian civil war. I know it’s Wikipedia 0. The two sources Al Jazeera 1 and Los Angeles Times 2 seems to confirm it. 0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_... 1 http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/russian-carries-air-strikes-syria-150930133155190.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/russian-carries-air-st... 2 https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-kremlin-oks-troops-20150930-story.html https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-kremlin-oks-troop...
mindslight 2y ago
What is the origin of this word "Russophobia" ? It seems like a recent invention trying to take advantage of the general western progressive concern of xenophobia to encourage weakness, similar to how their propagandists have re-purposed and abused general anti-war sentiment stemming from the Iraq debacle. But I'm curious to know if it's even older and was perhaps used as some kind of powertalk during Soviet times when a new area was being subjugated. "You just don't want us here because you're scared of us".
- cpursley 2y ago
  Goes back a while, there's even a book on the topic: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russophobia https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34237648-creating-russop...
  - mindslight 2y ago
    > First published January 1, 2016 That's quite recent, and the lead-in's focus on Putin "hysteria" is suspicious. The whole meme just feels an awful lot like the "American" neofascists' persecution complex, and that book seems right in line. Most certainly there is anti-Russia bias in the West that waxes and wanes - like during that entire Cold War. But extrapolating this general difference of perspective to some narrative that it's all unjust "phobia" is just disingenuous.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Sounds like you're just looking for excuses to justify bigotry and/or collective punishment (not a western value, btw).
      - mindslight 2y ago
        Seems like more superficial appeals to Western values that end up falling apart under the slightest scrutiny. I'm out. Enjoy the great explanatory power of your phobias.
  - 2y ago

tim333 2y ago

Your link has few details of indigenous population decimation. The "Indigenous peoples of Siberia" Wikipedia link seems to have more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia

riehwvfbk 2y ago

Your link does not say what your summary says. The Wiki article just says the Hakassi joined the Soviet revolution (presumably happily) and moved from nomadic to modern livelihoods. No mention of a massacre. Now, I am not saying that a massacre didn't happen. But it also didn't happen they way you are implying. This wasn't "the Communists oppressed poor tribesmen" but rather "imperialistic 18th century power steamrolls some natives". I can name a few more imperialistic powers of the period that did the same or worse. Also, the Hakassi culture is descended from Mongols, not Finns. Why are they more Finnish than Russian? That's right, because they are not. In fact, Hakassia is nowhere near Finland (it's in the middle of Siberia), but linking to the Finnish Wikipedia makes it seem like another little European country attacked by the Ogre Horde. Lastly, you say that tiny Finnish stub article has more details than the Russian Wikipedia, and that is simply not true. In addition to the main article, there is a link from it specifically to a standalone article about Hakassia's inclusion into Russia, which is described as "painful": https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BA_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8 https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%.... The events are covered in great detail starting with the 1600s. Does this explain why your comment is mostly Russophobia?

protomolecule 2y ago

[flagged]