4 ms·

> human driver Not in any even remotely modern system that will have a high degree of automation and if there's a driver, they're only closing and opening door

by sofixa 2y ago

> human driver Not in any even remotely modern system that will have a high degree of automation and if there's a driver, they're only closing and opening doors, and telling the train to get going.

AndrewSwift 2y ago
I just took a one day initiation with the SNCF for driving trains in France. I assumed that everything would be automated but in fact nothing is. They explained that they regularly face situations that require human intervention (several times a day), and that even a little automation would reduce the level of attention on the part of the conductor. The conductor is required to interact with the controls at least every 30 seconds to avoid setting off alarms.
- maeln 2y ago
  The SNCF is for regional and national train (with the exception of the RER) where the possibility of having a cow coming on the rail is non-negligible ... or a hot air ballon landing on the rail and stopping the Nantes-Paris lines for a whole morning :D . So I think it is a much, much harder environment to automate. Paris do have some metro line that are fully automatic (line 1 at least) and both Rennes metro lines are fully automatic. It is much easier to control the environment around a metro and ensure that nothing can go on the rails, and have surveillance system to check if, if it does happen, it is detected ASAP.
  - rossant 2y ago
    Paris metro lines 1, 4, and 14 are automatic at the moment.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > The SNCF is for regional and national train (with the exception of the RER) where the possibility of having a cow coming on the rail is non-negligible ... or a hot air ballon landing on the rail and stopping the Nantes-Paris lines for a whole morning :D . Or camels: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/animaux/un-dromadaire-apercu-aux-bord-des-voies-pres-de-la-gare-de-melun_3149071.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/animaux/un-dromadaire-apercu-aux... > So I think it is a much, much harder environment to automate. Paris do have some metro line that are fully automatic (line 1 at least) and both Rennes metro lines are fully automatic. It is much easier to control the environment around a metro and ensure that nothing can go on the rails, and have surveillance system to check if, if it does happen, it is detected ASAP. Even the non-fully automatic lines use heavy automation (e.g. lines such as 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13).
  - Lance_ET_Compte 2y ago
    "Leaves on the line." https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/delays-explained/leaves https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-af...
lpribis 2y ago
Not true for a lot of (widely used) systems. Both the NY subway and London Underground are manually driven for the majority of lines.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
  The comment to which you replied specifically said "Not in any even remotely modern system"; neither of those are remotely modern, _especially_ not NYC. Only two or three lines of the famed Paris system would qualify. Barcelona, on the other hand, would qualify for everything except line 4.
- lmm 2y ago
  Every London Underground line built after 1906 is automatically driven - the human driver just pushes a button and the train drives itself to the next station.
  - iggldiggl 2y ago
    That makes it sound as if they'd been automated right from 1907, which most definitely isn't the case – on most line automation only happened very recently. (The Victoria Line was automated right from its opening in 1968, then the Central line was automated in the 90s, the Jubilee and Northern lines in the 2010s and the subsurface network is currently under way.) Also if we want to quibble, at least a few sections of the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines (which are still completely manually driven) were opened after 1906.
    - lmm 2y ago
      > That makes it sound as if they'd been automated right from 1907, which most definitely isn't the case From 1907 onwards every newly built line was automated from opening (though indeed extensions or "new" lines made by splitting an existing line were sometimes manually driven).
      - iggldiggl 2y ago
bluGill 2y ago
Most train systems around the world are not automated. Even though electronics can do better than a human driver, most trains have a human driver. (in subway systems you should be able to keep all dangers off the track so the safety problem is much easier than roads where kids might be playing in the street. But this requires platform screen doors which is also rare) The real advantage of automation though is without a human driver it becomes cheap to run a lot of trains that are not very full and that makes your system nearly as convenient as driving in the suburbs.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Most train systems around the world are not automated All modern ones (in an urban/suburban context, which is what the post and thread are about; interurban is a bit more mixed, but every high speed line is highly automated too, because at those speeds there simply isn't the time for a human to react) are. > The real advantage of automation though is without a human driver it becomes cheap to run a lot of trains that are not very full And you can also have a very high frequency (60-90s intervals), which is impossible with manual operations. This increases capacity, on top of the convenience.

by sofixa 2y ago

> human driver Not in any even remotely modern system that will have a high degree of automation and if there's a driver, they're only closing and opening doors, and telling the train to get going.

AndrewSwift 2y ago

I just took a one day initiation with the SNCF for driving trains in France. I assumed that everything would be automated but in fact nothing is. They explained that they regularly face situations that require human intervention (several times a day), and that even a little automation would reduce the level of attention on the part of the conductor. The conductor is required to interact with the controls at least every 30 seconds to avoid setting off alarms.

maeln 2y ago
The SNCF is for regional and national train (with the exception of the RER) where the possibility of having a cow coming on the rail is non-negligible ... or a hot air ballon landing on the rail and stopping the Nantes-Paris lines for a whole morning :D . So I think it is a much, much harder environment to automate. Paris do have some metro line that are fully automatic (line 1 at least) and both Rennes metro lines are fully automatic. It is much easier to control the environment around a metro and ensure that nothing can go on the rails, and have surveillance system to check if, if it does happen, it is detected ASAP.
- rossant 2y ago
  Paris metro lines 1, 4, and 14 are automatic at the moment.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > The SNCF is for regional and national train (with the exception of the RER) where the possibility of having a cow coming on the rail is non-negligible ... or a hot air ballon landing on the rail and stopping the Nantes-Paris lines for a whole morning :D . Or camels: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/animaux/un-dromadaire-apercu-aux-bord-des-voies-pres-de-la-gare-de-melun_3149071.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/animaux/un-dromadaire-apercu-aux... > So I think it is a much, much harder environment to automate. Paris do have some metro line that are fully automatic (line 1 at least) and both Rennes metro lines are fully automatic. It is much easier to control the environment around a metro and ensure that nothing can go on the rails, and have surveillance system to check if, if it does happen, it is detected ASAP. Even the non-fully automatic lines use heavy automation (e.g. lines such as 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13).
- Lance_ET_Compte 2y ago
  "Leaves on the line." https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/delays-explained/leaves https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-af...

lpribis 2y ago

Not true for a lot of (widely used) systems. Both the NY subway and London Underground are manually driven for the majority of lines.

ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
The comment to which you replied specifically said "Not in any even remotely modern system"; neither of those are remotely modern, _especially_ not NYC. Only two or three lines of the famed Paris system would qualify. Barcelona, on the other hand, would qualify for everything except line 4.
lmm 2y ago
Every London Underground line built after 1906 is automatically driven - the human driver just pushes a button and the train drives itself to the next station.
- iggldiggl 2y ago
  That makes it sound as if they'd been automated right from 1907, which most definitely isn't the case – on most line automation only happened very recently. (The Victoria Line was automated right from its opening in 1968, then the Central line was automated in the 90s, the Jubilee and Northern lines in the 2010s and the subsurface network is currently under way.) Also if we want to quibble, at least a few sections of the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines (which are still completely manually driven) were opened after 1906.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > That makes it sound as if they'd been automated right from 1907, which most definitely isn't the case From 1907 onwards every newly built line was automated from opening (though indeed extensions or "new" lines made by splitting an existing line were sometimes manually driven).
    - iggldiggl 2y ago

bluGill 2y ago

Most train systems around the world are not automated. Even though electronics can do better than a human driver, most trains have a human driver. (in subway systems you should be able to keep all dangers off the track so the safety problem is much easier than roads where kids might be playing in the street. But this requires platform screen doors which is also rare) The real advantage of automation though is without a human driver it becomes cheap to run a lot of trains that are not very full and that makes your system nearly as convenient as driving in the suburbs.

sofixa 2y ago
> Most train systems around the world are not automated All modern ones (in an urban/suburban context, which is what the post and thread are about; interurban is a bit more mixed, but every high speed line is highly automated too, because at those speeds there simply isn't the time for a human to react) are. > The real advantage of automation though is without a human driver it becomes cheap to run a lot of trains that are not very full And you can also have a very high frequency (60-90s intervals), which is impossible with manual operations. This increases capacity, on top of the convenience.