6 ms·

That's true, but also true is the fact that a large part of the reason for using alternatives is to avoid this kind of data collection. So it's reasonable to ex

That's true, but also true is the fact that a large part of the reason for using alternatives is to avoid this kind of data collection. So it's reasonable to expect to lose users with a decision like this.

graemep 2y ago
Data collection like what? It is still much less data, and does not allow them to identify you AFAIK. Even if they go with opt-in (not yet decided - it seems to be being debated and thy are asking for feedback) it is still far better than proprietary OSes.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > Data collection like what? Like any at all? There's this deep sense of entitlement coming from software devs and vendors, that's completely unjustified. Comparisons on the amount and type of data collected is missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Manjaro is sending more or less telemetry than MacOS - neither of them should be doing it in the first place. They have no actual right to that data, no matter how much having it makes the devs' jobs easier. What they should do is ask for it, honestly and convincingly, like asking users for a favor, because it's exactly what it is (and it's not like anyone is considering compensating user for the service).
  - eth0up 2y ago
    Spot on! Well said. I frequently wonder what breed of human sincerely disagrees. I sometimes think the realm of software encourages through detachment (remoteness, distance from the users) a sense of liberty for the id. If this shit was attempted physically, in person, there'd be a lot of missing teeth.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      What? It happens all the time. Retail stores count the rate at which people enter their doors to help determine how to staff the store. Traffic engineers count how many vehicles and pedestrians use certain roadways so they know which modes to optimize for. Your ISP gathers aggregate statistics about how much bandwidth is being used across regions to decide where to upgrade their network. Data collection can be harmful, but it's also extremely useful to know how people are using products and infrastructure. There's a balance, and if you're on the "zero data collection" side, I think you need to justify making the devs' lives harder by explaining what harms will come from the proposed collection.
      - JohnFen 2y ago
        > I think you need to justify making the devs' lives harder by explaining what harms will come from the proposed collection. I disagree. I don't need to show actual harm to reasonably object to being spied on. At least Manjaro isn't talking about making this mandatory, but opt-out is is still a very poor look that would make me avoid using it as long as there are other options that are more respectful.
        coldpie 2y ago
        > being spied on Please explain what specifically Manjaro is proposing to do that you classify as being "spied on." Don't handwave this away, actually answer the question.
        JohnFen 2y ago
        The collection of any data about me, my machines, or my use of my machines without my explicit informed consent is spying.
        coldpie 2y ago
        What data is Manjaro collecting?
        JohnFen 2y ago
        I had trouble finding exactly what MDD collects, but my assumption is that it collects data about the hardware in use and what packages are installed, at a minimum.
        coldpie 2y ago
        Okay. So you can't explain how you are harmed by this data collection, and you have an opt-out mechanism you can use to disable it anyway. What are we complaining about?
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      > I frequently wonder what breed of human sincerely disagrees. People who genuinely care to fine-tune their software to work better for their users. What monsters.
      - account42 2y ago
        Those people can ask their users what they actually need instead of using statistics to validate their own prior assumptions.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        I hear they tried, many times, and less than 0.1% of users responded. I personally don't think it's such a monster move to send some anonymous usage data, especially if you present a box with a choice once the program starts for the first time. (Granted that's not what Manjaro is doing here.)
      - eth0up 2y ago
        When it gets to Microsoft-level telemetry, yes, I'd say monsters. This situation? Less so. But how it so easily approaches such levels needs consideration. There's simply a prevailing view with data where "if it exists and we can access it, it are belong to us" and collectively it is monstrous. I'd rather people become overly (even unreasonably) sensitive to it than keep going with the flow. It's too easy to start with innocent bits, then more and more until real-time surveillance style Windows Recall shittery.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        > When it gets to Microsoft-level telemetry, yes, I'd say monsters. This situation? Less so. That was my point, yes. And I'll agree it's a slippery slope.
        eth0up 2y ago
        I'll also remind you of Audacity's opt-out telemetry proposal [0]. This is a rare exception in Linux presently and I'd hate to see it become the rule. 0. Only link I could quickly find: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/nbio7c/audacity_response_to_criticism_on_telemetry_pull/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/nbio7c/audacity_resp...
  - coldpie 2y ago
    That's not nearly as useful though. What devs want is to know how their users are interacting with the software, so they can make improvements to it. Opt-in gives a much smaller sample size, and a strong selection bias. I don't know enough to say that it's completely useless, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is. > Like any at all? No, don't sidestep the question, actually answer it. What data are they collecting and how is it harmful? The devs feel this information is useful to make their software better. If you think you are harmed by this, please explain how.
    - bondarchuk 2y ago
      GGP said avoiding data collection is a reason to use linux. GP asked what data collection. The answer was "any at all". That is not "sidestepping the question". GGP didn't state they think they are harmed by data collection, they only stated they don't want their data to be collected.
      - coldpie 2y ago
        Right, so we're back to the OP of this thread--open source software doesn't have access to a useful tool, and you can't explain why you are refusing them to have this tool. This results in lower quality software, to no one's benefit.
        bondarchuk 2y ago
        I disagree with your attempt to frame this like it is an issue that needs to be resolved at all costs. Yes, I don't give developers access to my data which would be useful for them. No, I won't explain why I'm refusing this. Yes, it might result in some lower quality software. I am completely fine with that situation and wish it will stay that way.
        coldpie 2y ago
        That's totally fine and they have an opt-out mechanism for people who feel like that. I don't think anyone is behaving badly here. They want to collect data to make their software better; opt-in has significant downsides; and you have an option to turn off the data collection. What are we complaining about?
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > it is still far better than proprietary OSes. That's an incredibly low bar. I think that good software should aim much, much higher than that.
- jethro_tell 2y ago
  The problem is that you cannot guess which users are working to fly completely under the radar because of their specific threat profile.

graemep 2y ago

Data collection like what? It is still much less data, and does not allow them to identify you AFAIK. Even if they go with opt-in (not yet decided - it seems to be being debated and thy are asking for feedback) it is still far better than proprietary OSes.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
> Data collection like what? Like any at all? There's this deep sense of entitlement coming from software devs and vendors, that's completely unjustified. Comparisons on the amount and type of data collected is missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Manjaro is sending more or less telemetry than MacOS - neither of them should be doing it in the first place. They have no actual right to that data, no matter how much having it makes the devs' jobs easier. What they should do is ask for it, honestly and convincingly, like asking users for a favor, because it's exactly what it is (and it's not like anyone is considering compensating user for the service).
- eth0up 2y ago
  Spot on! Well said. I frequently wonder what breed of human sincerely disagrees. I sometimes think the realm of software encourages through detachment (remoteness, distance from the users) a sense of liberty for the id. If this shit was attempted physically, in person, there'd be a lot of missing teeth.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    What? It happens all the time. Retail stores count the rate at which people enter their doors to help determine how to staff the store. Traffic engineers count how many vehicles and pedestrians use certain roadways so they know which modes to optimize for. Your ISP gathers aggregate statistics about how much bandwidth is being used across regions to decide where to upgrade their network. Data collection can be harmful, but it's also extremely useful to know how people are using products and infrastructure. There's a balance, and if you're on the "zero data collection" side, I think you need to justify making the devs' lives harder by explaining what harms will come from the proposed collection.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      > I think you need to justify making the devs' lives harder by explaining what harms will come from the proposed collection. I disagree. I don't need to show actual harm to reasonably object to being spied on. At least Manjaro isn't talking about making this mandatory, but opt-out is is still a very poor look that would make me avoid using it as long as there are other options that are more respectful.
      - coldpie 2y ago
        > being spied on Please explain what specifically Manjaro is proposing to do that you classify as being "spied on." Don't handwave this away, actually answer the question.
        JohnFen 2y ago
        The collection of any data about me, my machines, or my use of my machines without my explicit informed consent is spying.
        coldpie 2y ago
        What data is Manjaro collecting?
        JohnFen 2y ago
        I had trouble finding exactly what MDD collects, but my assumption is that it collects data about the hardware in use and what packages are installed, at a minimum.
        coldpie 2y ago
        Okay. So you can't explain how you are harmed by this data collection, and you have an opt-out mechanism you can use to disable it anyway. What are we complaining about?
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    > I frequently wonder what breed of human sincerely disagrees. People who genuinely care to fine-tune their software to work better for their users. What monsters.
    - account42 2y ago
      Those people can ask their users what they actually need instead of using statistics to validate their own prior assumptions.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        I hear they tried, many times, and less than 0.1% of users responded. I personally don't think it's such a monster move to send some anonymous usage data, especially if you present a box with a choice once the program starts for the first time. (Granted that's not what Manjaro is doing here.)
    - eth0up 2y ago
      When it gets to Microsoft-level telemetry, yes, I'd say monsters. This situation? Less so. But how it so easily approaches such levels needs consideration. There's simply a prevailing view with data where "if it exists and we can access it, it are belong to us" and collectively it is monstrous. I'd rather people become overly (even unreasonably) sensitive to it than keep going with the flow. It's too easy to start with innocent bits, then more and more until real-time surveillance style Windows Recall shittery.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        > When it gets to Microsoft-level telemetry, yes, I'd say monsters. This situation? Less so. That was my point, yes. And I'll agree it's a slippery slope.
        eth0up 2y ago
        I'll also remind you of Audacity's opt-out telemetry proposal [0]. This is a rare exception in Linux presently and I'd hate to see it become the rule. 0. Only link I could quickly find: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/nbio7c/audacity_response_to_criticism_on_telemetry_pull/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/nbio7c/audacity_resp...
- coldpie 2y ago
  That's not nearly as useful though. What devs want is to know how their users are interacting with the software, so they can make improvements to it. Opt-in gives a much smaller sample size, and a strong selection bias. I don't know enough to say that it's completely useless, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is. > Like any at all? No, don't sidestep the question, actually answer it. What data are they collecting and how is it harmful? The devs feel this information is useful to make their software better. If you think you are harmed by this, please explain how.
  - bondarchuk 2y ago
    GGP said avoiding data collection is a reason to use linux. GP asked what data collection. The answer was "any at all". That is not "sidestepping the question". GGP didn't state they think they are harmed by data collection, they only stated they don't want their data to be collected.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      Right, so we're back to the OP of this thread--open source software doesn't have access to a useful tool, and you can't explain why you are refusing them to have this tool. This results in lower quality software, to no one's benefit.
      - bondarchuk 2y ago
        I disagree with your attempt to frame this like it is an issue that needs to be resolved at all costs. Yes, I don't give developers access to my data which would be useful for them. No, I won't explain why I'm refusing this. Yes, it might result in some lower quality software. I am completely fine with that situation and wish it will stay that way.
        coldpie 2y ago
        That's totally fine and they have an opt-out mechanism for people who feel like that. I don't think anyone is behaving badly here. They want to collect data to make their software better; opt-in has significant downsides; and you have an option to turn off the data collection. What are we complaining about?
JohnFen 2y ago
> it is still far better than proprietary OSes. That's an incredibly low bar. I think that good software should aim much, much higher than that.
jethro_tell 2y ago
The problem is that you cannot guess which users are working to fly completely under the radar because of their specific threat profile.