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As a software engineer currently working in Japan, I fully agree with your comment. But I think it is not just the risk aversion, Japan is a very rigid country

As a software engineer currently working in Japan, I fully agree with your comment. But I think it is not just the risk aversion, Japan is a very rigid country with an strong emphasis on following the hierarchy and rules, no matter how ridiculous they are, but introspection and critical thinking are not appreciated. This works well for industrial environments, but not for software development.

m463 2y ago
I think there is a bias for perfectionism. This can be a good point and a bad point. I remember being a junior engineer and spending time to really make my software good and my first review had a comment that I spent too much time adding "bells and whistles" (which was only partially true). So it gets drilled out of you in US software.
- pezezin 2y ago
  I agree with you. As my first boss taught me, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. But after 6 years living here, I find the image of the Japanese as perfectionists to be a myth. Sure, the old sushi master that has dedicated his life to the craft might a perfectionist; most other people are not. Take a look a the average Japanese city with its ugly buildings, chaotic street layout, and insane cabling. Or the average office or shop, with a mess of boxes and piles of documents everywhere. Or the countryside (where I live) and the abysmal state of most roads and infrastructure. Those are not the signs of a perfectionist society.
  - mc3301 2y ago
    I agree, the myth and mystery around "perfect Japan" which is funny because the west also loves its "wabi-sabi" and "ikigai" among other things. Japan in up on such a pedestal for some people, especially through the narrow lens of being a tourist or a consumer of their goods/services/media. Heck, A LOT of things that have that desirable "made in Japan" sticker are made by abused migrant workers with very little protection and pay. They aren't even made by the "mythological perfect and careful Japanese hands." Note: been here 15 years and I have many friends in the manufacturing industry
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Heck, A LOT of things that have that desirable "made in Japan" sticker are made by abused migrant workers with very little protection and pay. They aren't even made by the "mythological perfect and careful Japanese hands." Same with made in Germany and the US. Actually, Made in Germany is worse. Every consumer electronic I have labeled Made in Germany is absolutely crap. The Bosch stove has the sealing gasket wrongly mounted, the Siemens vacuum cleaner is poorly designed and built, so is the Fujitsu laptop I just sold which felt like bottom of the barrel e-waste. Electronics from Xiaomi, Huawei, etc feels way better built and better designed than stuff labeled made in Germany.
      - maeil 2y ago
        Should've gone for Miele. Not even kidding.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        What do I look like, an oil tycoon?
        maeil 2y ago
        Their build quality means a secondhand Miele lasts longer than brand new other brands for the same price.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        Warranty is still the legally required minimum of 2 years for Miele. You have no guarantee it will last longer than that. If Miele had so much confidence in their products lasting longer they'd offer longer warranties like Samsung does on their SSDs of 5 years or so. The concept of "Miele lasts forever" is as outdated as the "German cars last forever". It used to be true in the past but we can't be coasting on that trope today.
        Moru 2y ago
  - jesterson 2y ago
    > Those are not the signs of a perfectionist society I beg to differ. They just apply perfectionism to different areas compared to what you have listed. Different cultures attract efforts to different areas.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >Take a look a the average Japanese city with its ugly buildings, chaotic street layout, and insane cabling. Or the average office or shop, with a mess of boxes and piles of documents everywhere. They are perfectionist, just not anal about it. Their perfectionism is not about tidy small shops. And compared to the average US city, the average Japanese city is a masterpiece, including the modern buildings and streets.
    - pezezin 2y ago
      Again, they are not perfectionist, that is a myth. Second, I don't know how the average US city is, because I have never been to the US, but I think that you really overestimate how the average Japanese city looks like. People who have never lived here think that all of Japan is like the cool neighbourhoods of Tokyo, but that could not be further from the truth. The average Japanese city suffers from serious urban sprawl, most are just a bunch of big box stores interconnected by stroads, and little houses scattered everywhere without any kind of planning. There are plenty of old, decaying buildings everywhere and streets in pretty bad condition. Look, I live in Misawa, Aomori. Please take a look around on Google Street View, and then tell me how much of a masterpiece it is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/d5DDV3PT6MiSNYPYA https://maps.app.goo.gl/d5DDV3PT6MiSNYPYA
      - vladms 2y ago
        Maybe perfectionist is the wrong word for it, but me, as a European I do feel there is some kind of (obsessive?) attention for details and (at least desire) for order in Japan cities that you don't see/feel in other places. This is my impression after 2 weeks around Japan, both cities and some country side.
        pezezin 2y ago
        There is an obsession for rules, procedures and order when it comes to people's behavior, but not the physical order of the city itself. Zoning laws and construction regulations are extremely lax, and that results in chaotic cities. For example, the city where I live is full of farms and orchards in the center of the city itself (totally open to the street because Japanese people don't like fences), and half the streets are unpaved. That is unthinkable in my home country.
quanto 2y ago
I agree in substance. I see adherence of hierarchy as a facet of risk aversion. One doesn't wish to stand out too much but stand comfortably behind the veil of rules and orders.
- pezezin 2y ago
  To be fair, when standing out gets you punished, I understand why people don't take risks.
  - ithkuil 2y ago
    There is a subtle difference between getting punished because you're standing out or being punished because you stood out and failed
    - ykonstant 2y ago
      Neither is a good thing, but Japan definitely punishes people merely for standing out, beginning at school.

m463 2y ago

I think there is a bias for perfectionism. This can be a good point and a bad point. I remember being a junior engineer and spending time to really make my software good and my first review had a comment that I spent too much time adding "bells and whistles" (which was only partially true). So it gets drilled out of you in US software.

pezezin 2y ago
I agree with you. As my first boss taught me, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. But after 6 years living here, I find the image of the Japanese as perfectionists to be a myth. Sure, the old sushi master that has dedicated his life to the craft might a perfectionist; most other people are not. Take a look a the average Japanese city with its ugly buildings, chaotic street layout, and insane cabling. Or the average office or shop, with a mess of boxes and piles of documents everywhere. Or the countryside (where I live) and the abysmal state of most roads and infrastructure. Those are not the signs of a perfectionist society.
- mc3301 2y ago
  I agree, the myth and mystery around "perfect Japan" which is funny because the west also loves its "wabi-sabi" and "ikigai" among other things. Japan in up on such a pedestal for some people, especially through the narrow lens of being a tourist or a consumer of their goods/services/media. Heck, A LOT of things that have that desirable "made in Japan" sticker are made by abused migrant workers with very little protection and pay. They aren't even made by the "mythological perfect and careful Japanese hands." Note: been here 15 years and I have many friends in the manufacturing industry
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Heck, A LOT of things that have that desirable "made in Japan" sticker are made by abused migrant workers with very little protection and pay. They aren't even made by the "mythological perfect and careful Japanese hands." Same with made in Germany and the US. Actually, Made in Germany is worse. Every consumer electronic I have labeled Made in Germany is absolutely crap. The Bosch stove has the sealing gasket wrongly mounted, the Siemens vacuum cleaner is poorly designed and built, so is the Fujitsu laptop I just sold which felt like bottom of the barrel e-waste. Electronics from Xiaomi, Huawei, etc feels way better built and better designed than stuff labeled made in Germany.
    - maeil 2y ago
      Should've gone for Miele. Not even kidding.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        What do I look like, an oil tycoon?
        maeil 2y ago
        Their build quality means a secondhand Miele lasts longer than brand new other brands for the same price.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        Warranty is still the legally required minimum of 2 years for Miele. You have no guarantee it will last longer than that. If Miele had so much confidence in their products lasting longer they'd offer longer warranties like Samsung does on their SSDs of 5 years or so. The concept of "Miele lasts forever" is as outdated as the "German cars last forever". It used to be true in the past but we can't be coasting on that trope today.
      - Moru 2y ago
- jesterson 2y ago
  > Those are not the signs of a perfectionist society I beg to differ. They just apply perfectionism to different areas compared to what you have listed. Different cultures attract efforts to different areas.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >Take a look a the average Japanese city with its ugly buildings, chaotic street layout, and insane cabling. Or the average office or shop, with a mess of boxes and piles of documents everywhere. They are perfectionist, just not anal about it. Their perfectionism is not about tidy small shops. And compared to the average US city, the average Japanese city is a masterpiece, including the modern buildings and streets.
  - pezezin 2y ago
    Again, they are not perfectionist, that is a myth. Second, I don't know how the average US city is, because I have never been to the US, but I think that you really overestimate how the average Japanese city looks like. People who have never lived here think that all of Japan is like the cool neighbourhoods of Tokyo, but that could not be further from the truth. The average Japanese city suffers from serious urban sprawl, most are just a bunch of big box stores interconnected by stroads, and little houses scattered everywhere without any kind of planning. There are plenty of old, decaying buildings everywhere and streets in pretty bad condition. Look, I live in Misawa, Aomori. Please take a look around on Google Street View, and then tell me how much of a masterpiece it is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/d5DDV3PT6MiSNYPYA https://maps.app.goo.gl/d5DDV3PT6MiSNYPYA
    - vladms 2y ago
      Maybe perfectionist is the wrong word for it, but me, as a European I do feel there is some kind of (obsessive?) attention for details and (at least desire) for order in Japan cities that you don't see/feel in other places. This is my impression after 2 weeks around Japan, both cities and some country side.
      - pezezin 2y ago
        There is an obsession for rules, procedures and order when it comes to people's behavior, but not the physical order of the city itself. Zoning laws and construction regulations are extremely lax, and that results in chaotic cities. For example, the city where I live is full of farms and orchards in the center of the city itself (totally open to the street because Japanese people don't like fences), and half the streets are unpaved. That is unthinkable in my home country.

quanto 2y ago

I agree in substance. I see adherence of hierarchy as a facet of risk aversion. One doesn't wish to stand out too much but stand comfortably behind the veil of rules and orders.

pezezin 2y ago
To be fair, when standing out gets you punished, I understand why people don't take risks.
- ithkuil 2y ago
  There is a subtle difference between getting punished because you're standing out or being punished because you stood out and failed
  - ykonstant 2y ago
    Neither is a good thing, but Japan definitely punishes people merely for standing out, beginning at school.