3 ms·

It's basically Old Believers' entire identity - opposition to the official church.

by kgeist 2y ago

Muromec 2y ago
Not to the official church, but to Ukrainians bringing it into the alignment with the common Orthodox canon at the time. What happened isn’t purely lithurgical change, they imported a lot of monks who can read canonical greek texts with them. It’s a repeated historical pattern — top down reforms brought by “enlightened” leader to make the country more European, more Orthodox or more communist. This was even before Peter cutting beards of the entrenched nobility and was sold on the orthodoxy, autocracy and nationalism thing by the usual suspects.
- kgeist 2y ago
  One of the reasons for the reforms was to "go back to the old roots", because the Greeks peformed some rituals differently from Russians, and the opinion was that the Russian rituals were "corrupted" but, interestingly, some of the "restored" canon was actually later Greek innovations while the Russian Church preserved the older ways. For example, they started to cross themselves with 3 fingers instead of 2 fingers in Constantinople only in the 13th century. In my opinion, an unnecessary and misguided reform.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Funnily enough, this obscure dispute may have been the inspiration for a very modern work of art. In the game Elden Ring, there are mysterious entities known as the Two Fingers and the Three Fingers. The Two Fingers are well known and respected parts of the church of that land, while the Three Fingers are a secret, heretical cult. And the Two Fingers is in fact a literal set of two fingers, which seem to be the index and middle finger, corresponding to the fingers used in the Old Believers version of the rite; while the Three Fingers is also a set of fingers, with a thumb, index, and middle finger, also corresponding to the fingers used in the modern rite. It's somewhat likely that they are inspired by exactly this huge dispute in Eastern Orthodox's history.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - Muromec 2y ago
      That's a different schism chef. It's all schisms all the way down. They were unhinged from the beginning you may say.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    I tried watching "Ivan Vasilievich Changes Profession" (1973) to see which way they had Ivan IV (the Terrible) crossing, but the director very cleverly has the actor's back to the camera during that moment in the elevator...

It's basically Old Believers' entire identity - opposition to the official church.

by kgeist 2y ago

It's basically Old Believers' entire identity - opposition to the official church.

Not to the official church, but to Ukrainians bringing it into the alignment with the common Orthodox canon at the time. What happened isn’t purely lithurgical change, they imported a lot of monks who can read canonical greek texts with them. It’s a repeated historical pattern — top down reforms brought by “enlightened” leader to make the country more European, more Orthodox or more communist. This was even before Peter cutting beards of the entrenched nobility and was sold on the orthodoxy, autocracy and nationalism thing by the usual suspects.

kgeist 2y ago
One of the reasons for the reforms was to "go back to the old roots", because the Greeks peformed some rituals differently from Russians, and the opinion was that the Russian rituals were "corrupted" but, interestingly, some of the "restored" canon was actually later Greek innovations while the Russian Church preserved the older ways. For example, they started to cross themselves with 3 fingers instead of 2 fingers in Constantinople only in the 13th century. In my opinion, an unnecessary and misguided reform.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Funnily enough, this obscure dispute may have been the inspiration for a very modern work of art. In the game Elden Ring, there are mysterious entities known as the Two Fingers and the Three Fingers. The Two Fingers are well known and respected parts of the church of that land, while the Three Fingers are a secret, heretical cult. And the Two Fingers is in fact a literal set of two fingers, which seem to be the index and middle finger, corresponding to the fingers used in the Old Believers version of the rite; while the Three Fingers is also a set of fingers, with a thumb, index, and middle finger, also corresponding to the fingers used in the modern rite. It's somewhat likely that they are inspired by exactly this huge dispute in Eastern Orthodox's history.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Muromec 2y ago
    That's a different schism chef. It's all schisms all the way down. They were unhinged from the beginning you may say.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  I tried watching "Ivan Vasilievich Changes Profession" (1973) to see which way they had Ivan IV (the Terrible) crossing, but the director very cleverly has the actor's back to the camera during that moment in the elevator...