5 ms·

The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features

recursive 2y ago
That's just like... your opinion man. People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. If you really want to communicate with someone and not just score points for your team, you should say what the malware is, and why you're calling it that.
- aniviacat 2y ago
  Windows 11 literally contains ads
  - recursive 2y ago
    Not saying it doesn't, but I've been using it daily for years, and at least haven't noticed them.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      You probably deactivated them, are using a corporate PC whose owner deactivated them, or live in a country Microsoft doesn't advertise in. The existence of the adverts is very widely reported in the technical press.
  - xnyan 2y ago
    I'm having to deal with increasingly pushy ads from Apple. Banner notifications with ads for their tv, news, game and music services, as well as fake alerts in the settings app that say some bullshit like "Setup required - signup for some icloud storage now!" I work at an outfit that uses RHEL, they absolutely inject ads for their services whenever you use a shell. Microsoft is the most distasteful, but it's matter of degrees for most OS vendors.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Windows XP contained ads. It had a demo for a game suite bundled in it. It had so many references to Microsoft Passport. Its defaults were set to msn's website filled with ads. It was set up to easily get connected to certain ISPs out of the box. Windows Messenger often had ads and was bundled in it. Security Center pushed antivirus subscriptions. Windows Media Player had ads in it from time to time.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The standard Windows first-run setup prompts with dark patterns to show advertising and send private data like keystrokes and microphone audio to Microsoft. It very strongly pushes the user to use a Microsoft account to sign in to their own computer. (This is my experience in the EU, so presumably the relatively polite version.) It seems reasonable to call this malware. It's what software like browser toolbars did 20 years ago, and they were widely criticised for it.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Since at least XP, in my memory, and yes it is pretty easy to argue that every version has gotten worse. Some highlights: "Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 "Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 "Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in Windows Explorer" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 EDIT: And to finish the throughline back to XP, every version of Windows since then has included more "telemetry", which a perfectly reasonable person could describe as "spyware".
- Out_of_Characte 2y ago
  I dont consider that an opinion anymore. You have to look at microsoft and windows from the perspective of an actual software product. Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush. Let that sink in. Either you accept that candy crush itself is malware preying on an innocent microsoft or there is a significant and hostile attempt by microsoft to push unwanted and distracting software onto consumers. Which is practically the definition of malware. You could add the countless other examples of advertisement and other unwanted behaviour that is not fit for an operating system and you'll find they fit the description of malware. If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    > If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is. It's whatever Dell and HP preloading McAfee is; which they've been doing in one way or another for decades.
    - yellowapple 2y ago
      And for which they've also been widely criticized for the exact same reasons.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush Your argument wasn't really based in reality. Windows didn't have Candy Crush actually installed; it was a shortcut to get it from the store. And even then, we could rephrase that. Change "candy crush" to "mahjong titans" or "3D pinball" or "minesweeper" or "hover" or "hearts" or "solitaire" or "reversi", all games that were actually installed on a fresh install of Windows instead of just being a link to install it separately. Why aren't you then complaining about Reversi or Hover? Where was the outrage in the 1980s over this? Why is it such a big deal that its "candy crush"? Microsoft has been bundling in games to its operating systems since 1985. I don't get why people suddenly made a big deal about it when it became a shortcut to Candy Crush.
- yellowapple 2y ago
  > People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. And they've been 100% correct in doing so since Vista or earlier.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Then a loss of support for 7 and 8 doesn't really mean much.
    - yellowapple 2y ago
      Less baked-in malware is arguably better than more baked-in malware. But sure, a loss of support for 7 and 8 indeed doesn't mean much for those of us who've already migrated away from Windows.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- alephxyz 2y ago
  Okay here are the first few that come to mind: - displaying a full screen dialog on login asking me to enable OneDrive with options being: yes/remind me in 3 days/remind me in a week; - ads in start menu; - using MS Edge + bing for searches from the start menu, disregarding the default browser; - ditto but for Outlook links (at least this one can be disabled)! - different pop up/dialogs that prompt you to switch to Edge/Edge+copilot every few weeks
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  Nah, Win 11 introduced secure boot enforcement and forces you to use a Microsoft account. That is a new magnitude of enshitification. Even in corporate environments people get nervous. And yes, some aspects were better in older windows versions. MS itself decided they won't remove the control panel as advertised, because the settings app is just shitty or dysfunctional. This is beyond the level of shittyness that was Vista or Windows 8.
gjsman-1000 2y ago
> The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features Besides being extremely opinionated, remember the time Linux users were trying to say this about systemd? Now systemd is widely accepted except for the luddites at Devuan.
- yallpendantools 2y ago
  I know the whole debate around systemd but I never knew people even considered it to be along the lines of malware. I checked Devuan (which I also just learned from your comment) and they say > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. which, okay, points towards that direction but I can't find what they exactly consider "unnecessary entanglements" nor what exactly means "Init Freedom". I'm genuinely curious, what exactly are people saying about systemd being "malware"?
- Symbiote 2y ago
  I don't remember that, and I can't find any evidence of it. Some vocal users claimed Systemd was being forced upon them, or was taking over too much of the systems functions, or represented a loss of flexibility or choice, etc. (My opinion isn't relevant to your point.) No one was claiming it would maliciously interfere with the computer's security or the user's privacy.
npteljes 2y ago
That's an issue with Windows in general, not just Win 10. Let's not pretend that 7 is any better on a moral level than what 10 represents. Among other things, I'm meaning updates to Win 7 like this one: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-tracking-microsoft-backports-privacy-invading-windows-10-features-to-windows-7-8 https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-...

That's just like... your opinion man. People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. If you really want to communicate with someone and not just score points for your team, you should say what the malware is, and why you're calling it that.

aniviacat 2y ago
Windows 11 literally contains ads
- recursive 2y ago
  Not saying it doesn't, but I've been using it daily for years, and at least haven't noticed them.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    You probably deactivated them, are using a corporate PC whose owner deactivated them, or live in a country Microsoft doesn't advertise in. The existence of the adverts is very widely reported in the technical press.
- xnyan 2y ago
  I'm having to deal with increasingly pushy ads from Apple. Banner notifications with ads for their tv, news, game and music services, as well as fake alerts in the settings app that say some bullshit like "Setup required - signup for some icloud storage now!" I work at an outfit that uses RHEL, they absolutely inject ads for their services whenever you use a shell. Microsoft is the most distasteful, but it's matter of degrees for most OS vendors.
- vel0city 2y ago
  Windows XP contained ads. It had a demo for a game suite bundled in it. It had so many references to Microsoft Passport. Its defaults were set to msn's website filled with ads. It was set up to easily get connected to certain ISPs out of the box. Windows Messenger often had ads and was bundled in it. Security Center pushed antivirus subscriptions. Windows Media Player had ads in it from time to time.
Symbiote 2y ago
The standard Windows first-run setup prompts with dark patterns to show advertising and send private data like keystrokes and microphone audio to Microsoft. It very strongly pushes the user to use a Microsoft account to sign in to their own computer. (This is my experience in the EU, so presumably the relatively polite version.) It seems reasonable to call this malware. It's what software like browser toolbars did 20 years ago, and they were widely criticised for it.
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
Since at least XP, in my memory, and yes it is pretty easy to argue that every version has gotten worse. Some highlights: "Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 "Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 "Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in Windows Explorer" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 EDIT: And to finish the throughline back to XP, every version of Windows since then has included more "telemetry", which a perfectly reasonable person could describe as "spyware".
Out_of_Characte 2y ago
I dont consider that an opinion anymore. You have to look at microsoft and windows from the perspective of an actual software product. Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush. Let that sink in. Either you accept that candy crush itself is malware preying on an innocent microsoft or there is a significant and hostile attempt by microsoft to push unwanted and distracting software onto consumers. Which is practically the definition of malware. You could add the countless other examples of advertisement and other unwanted behaviour that is not fit for an operating system and you'll find they fit the description of malware. If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is. It's whatever Dell and HP preloading McAfee is; which they've been doing in one way or another for decades.
  - yellowapple 2y ago
    And for which they've also been widely criticized for the exact same reasons.
- vel0city 2y ago
  > Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush Your argument wasn't really based in reality. Windows didn't have Candy Crush actually installed; it was a shortcut to get it from the store. And even then, we could rephrase that. Change "candy crush" to "mahjong titans" or "3D pinball" or "minesweeper" or "hover" or "hearts" or "solitaire" or "reversi", all games that were actually installed on a fresh install of Windows instead of just being a link to install it separately. Why aren't you then complaining about Reversi or Hover? Where was the outrage in the 1980s over this? Why is it such a big deal that its "candy crush"? Microsoft has been bundling in games to its operating systems since 1985. I don't get why people suddenly made a big deal about it when it became a shortcut to Candy Crush.
yellowapple 2y ago
> People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. And they've been 100% correct in doing so since Vista or earlier.
- recursive 2y ago
  Then a loss of support for 7 and 8 doesn't really mean much.
  - yellowapple 2y ago
    Less baked-in malware is arguably better than more baked-in malware. But sure, a loss of support for 7 and 8 indeed doesn't mean much for those of us who've already migrated away from Windows.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alephxyz 2y ago
Okay here are the first few that come to mind: - displaying a full screen dialog on login asking me to enable OneDrive with options being: yes/remind me in 3 days/remind me in a week; - ads in start menu; - using MS Edge + bing for searches from the start menu, disregarding the default browser; - ditto but for Outlook links (at least this one can be disabled)! - different pop up/dialogs that prompt you to switch to Edge/Edge+copilot every few weeks
raxxorraxor 2y ago
Nah, Win 11 introduced secure boot enforcement and forces you to use a Microsoft account. That is a new magnitude of enshitification. Even in corporate environments people get nervous. And yes, some aspects were better in older windows versions. MS itself decided they won't remove the control panel as advertised, because the settings app is just shitty or dysfunctional. This is beyond the level of shittyness that was Vista or Windows 8.

gjsman-1000 2y ago

> The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features Besides being extremely opinionated, remember the time Linux users were trying to say this about systemd? Now systemd is widely accepted except for the luddites at Devuan.

yallpendantools 2y ago
I know the whole debate around systemd but I never knew people even considered it to be along the lines of malware. I checked Devuan (which I also just learned from your comment) and they say > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. which, okay, points towards that direction but I can't find what they exactly consider "unnecessary entanglements" nor what exactly means "Init Freedom". I'm genuinely curious, what exactly are people saying about systemd being "malware"?
Symbiote 2y ago
I don't remember that, and I can't find any evidence of it. Some vocal users claimed Systemd was being forced upon them, or was taking over too much of the systems functions, or represented a loss of flexibility or choice, etc. (My opinion isn't relevant to your point.) No one was claiming it would maliciously interfere with the computer's security or the user's privacy.

npteljes 2y ago

That's an issue with Windows in general, not just Win 10. Let's not pretend that 7 is any better on a moral level than what 10 represents. Among other things, I'm meaning updates to Win 7 like this one: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-tracking-microsoft-backports-privacy-invading-windows-10-features-to-windows-7-8 https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-...