3 ms·

The article talks about corruption like it's just a clearly bad thing and people either do the bad thing or not, but it's a blurry line between engaging in corr

The article talks about corruption like it's just a clearly bad thing and people either do the bad thing or not, but it's a blurry line between engaging in corruption and the normal ways that organizations work. Examples: If you pay a speeding ticket, isn't that like participating in corruption by buying your way out of punishment for endangering people? Is it really morally any different from paying a bribe to the policeman who catches you speeding in a country where that's the common way? In both cases, you pay for speeding and your money ends up going towards the policeman's income. Forming a personal connection with the interviewer when applying for a government job. Now you're suddenly like his friend and he's more inclined to select you. Maybe he expects to have a good relationship with you in future and gain intangible benefits from that if he hires you. In my country, teacher jobs have to be publicly advertised, presumably to combat nepotism. But schools regularly hire internally and their advertisement includes a statement like "no actual vacancy" telling people not to waste time applying. I guess they're following the law but still corrupting the ideal of not favoring your friends. It seems like you have to have a deep understanding of how and why the systems works the way it does to figure out if a particular action is morally corrupt or not. You can just follow the law but that seems to allow some society-harming corruption and nobody feels guilty about it.

chollida1 2y ago
> If you pay a speeding ticket, isn't that like participating in corruption by buying your way out of punishment for endangering people? Is it really morally any different from paying a bribe to the policeman who catches you speeding in a country where that's the common way? In both cases, you pay for speeding and your money ends up going towards the policeman's income. I mean, one goes to the government to help all citizens, one lines the pocket of a corrupt cop and does not benefit society in anyway. So yes, there is a huge gulf of difference between the two. Also an official ticket goes on record so the cop can tell if you've had many and maybe deserve a more severe punishment, the bribe is never recorded so we can't track the bad drives in this instance.
- foxglacier 2y ago
  > pocket of a corrupt cop and does not benefit society in anyway. It motivates him to stop speeding drivers which is good for society. To your second point, maybe a better system would be the policeman gets paid a commission on the tickets he issues so they're still recorded. But if it's not set up that way, bribery might be more effective than not.
  - thrw42A8N 2y ago
    Is it really good for society? Germany has the safest highways in the world. Also the only highways where it's exciting to see a police car while going 250 km/h. Some try to dismiss this by saying that there are areas with lower speeds - yes; they're placed where you need to slow down anyway, it's more like "hey buddy, beware of this sharp curve" rather than "we will milk your wallet if you go 1 km/h over this idiotically low speed". I go to Berlin regularly (500km) and my speed average including the slowdown areas is around 230 km/h and I'm not even close to the fastest one on the road. The best thing about this? The German diesel engine - drinking less fuel at these speeds than an American truck on idle.
    - foxglacier 2y ago
      Of course you can design a road to be safe at high speeds but normal roads aren't and normal people can't judge the safe speed.
      - thrw42A8N 2y ago
        I think that depends on the place. I can imagine that US cities with straight wide streets and roads are very hard to judge. But I can't imagine anyone having trouble with that in any European city... The top speed would be your last problem in any capital - you celebrate when it's not 0.
  - ZoomZoomZoom 2y ago
    > It motivates him to stop speeding drivers which is good for society. No, it motivates him to stop any driver that can't be confirmed to not be speeding under the level of 3d-party scrutiny the cop judges he risks to get under the circumstances. And also the ones that are more likely to offer more money.
bsder 2y ago
> The article talks about corruption like it's just a clearly bad thing and people either do the bad thing or not, but it's a blurry line between engaging in corruption and the normal ways that organizations work. Until you have "cops" every 10 miles on the freeway all demanding a bribe at gunpoint. "Corruption" is sand in the gears of everything. You can't go from point A to point B in a consistent amount of time or money. You can't order something and expect it to work without triple checking everything yourself. etc. We have a great example of the pernicious effects of corruption: Russia couldn't roll over Ukraine because corruption completely hollowed out their military.
- esperent 2y ago
  I've lived for several years in parts of the world where bribing police is, unfortunately, normal. There's a couple of places around the country where it's known that the police do shakedowns (although they certainly don't point guns at you). I guess especially corrupt police work in those areas. But for the most part I am much less likely to get stopped for minor traffic violations than I would be back home, where bribing the police isn't a thing. I'm sure there are other countries where police shakedowns is a problem, but it's not just a simple equation of bribable police = shakedowns.
- foxglacier 2y ago
  Yea I know it's generally bad most of the time. But I think the details of what is and isn't corruption are too complicated for ordinary people to decide based on morals because they'd have to understand all the implications. That's what the law is meant to be for, but does corruption magically stop being objectionable if it's made legal? I think we'd still call that corruption in obvious cases.
esarbe 2y ago
Corruption is inherently bad because it undermines the rule of law and people's trust in the the government.
- venkat223 2y ago
  In India the legal system is made in such a way including the top judiciary the political system takes over the labyrinthine ways of corruption and encourged
  - esarbe 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure that such a legal system does quite a bit of work to destroy trust in the legal system and institutions.

chollida1 2y ago

> If you pay a speeding ticket, isn't that like participating in corruption by buying your way out of punishment for endangering people? Is it really morally any different from paying a bribe to the policeman who catches you speeding in a country where that's the common way? In both cases, you pay for speeding and your money ends up going towards the policeman's income. I mean, one goes to the government to help all citizens, one lines the pocket of a corrupt cop and does not benefit society in anyway. So yes, there is a huge gulf of difference between the two. Also an official ticket goes on record so the cop can tell if you've had many and maybe deserve a more severe punishment, the bribe is never recorded so we can't track the bad drives in this instance.

foxglacier 2y ago
> pocket of a corrupt cop and does not benefit society in anyway. It motivates him to stop speeding drivers which is good for society. To your second point, maybe a better system would be the policeman gets paid a commission on the tickets he issues so they're still recorded. But if it's not set up that way, bribery might be more effective than not.
- thrw42A8N 2y ago
  Is it really good for society? Germany has the safest highways in the world. Also the only highways where it's exciting to see a police car while going 250 km/h. Some try to dismiss this by saying that there are areas with lower speeds - yes; they're placed where you need to slow down anyway, it's more like "hey buddy, beware of this sharp curve" rather than "we will milk your wallet if you go 1 km/h over this idiotically low speed". I go to Berlin regularly (500km) and my speed average including the slowdown areas is around 230 km/h and I'm not even close to the fastest one on the road. The best thing about this? The German diesel engine - drinking less fuel at these speeds than an American truck on idle.
  - foxglacier 2y ago
    Of course you can design a road to be safe at high speeds but normal roads aren't and normal people can't judge the safe speed.
    - thrw42A8N 2y ago
      I think that depends on the place. I can imagine that US cities with straight wide streets and roads are very hard to judge. But I can't imagine anyone having trouble with that in any European city... The top speed would be your last problem in any capital - you celebrate when it's not 0.
- ZoomZoomZoom 2y ago
  > It motivates him to stop speeding drivers which is good for society. No, it motivates him to stop any driver that can't be confirmed to not be speeding under the level of 3d-party scrutiny the cop judges he risks to get under the circumstances. And also the ones that are more likely to offer more money.

bsder 2y ago

> The article talks about corruption like it's just a clearly bad thing and people either do the bad thing or not, but it's a blurry line between engaging in corruption and the normal ways that organizations work. Until you have "cops" every 10 miles on the freeway all demanding a bribe at gunpoint. "Corruption" is sand in the gears of everything. You can't go from point A to point B in a consistent amount of time or money. You can't order something and expect it to work without triple checking everything yourself. etc. We have a great example of the pernicious effects of corruption: Russia couldn't roll over Ukraine because corruption completely hollowed out their military.

esperent 2y ago
I've lived for several years in parts of the world where bribing police is, unfortunately, normal. There's a couple of places around the country where it's known that the police do shakedowns (although they certainly don't point guns at you). I guess especially corrupt police work in those areas. But for the most part I am much less likely to get stopped for minor traffic violations than I would be back home, where bribing the police isn't a thing. I'm sure there are other countries where police shakedowns is a problem, but it's not just a simple equation of bribable police = shakedowns.
foxglacier 2y ago
Yea I know it's generally bad most of the time. But I think the details of what is and isn't corruption are too complicated for ordinary people to decide based on morals because they'd have to understand all the implications. That's what the law is meant to be for, but does corruption magically stop being objectionable if it's made legal? I think we'd still call that corruption in obvious cases.

esarbe 2y ago

Corruption is inherently bad because it undermines the rule of law and people's trust in the the government.

venkat223 2y ago
In India the legal system is made in such a way including the top judiciary the political system takes over the labyrinthine ways of corruption and encourged
- esarbe 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure that such a legal system does quite a bit of work to destroy trust in the legal system and institutions.