6 ms·

Steam drops Windows 7 and 8 support with the latest client

63 points by LorenDB 2y ago

Zenst 2y ago
This could be interesting, though it became less so after they dropped Vista in my experience. Currently, people can upgrade to Windows 10 or 11 for free. The main issue for many, however, is that Windows 11 only supports certain CPUs. As a result, many users with systems powerful enough for the games they play on their system that are already beyond the required specs will see themselves forced into an upgrade they would not otherwise need, want, and perhaps afford.
- alephxyz 2y ago
  The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features
  - recursive 2y ago
    That's just like... your opinion man. People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. If you really want to communicate with someone and not just score points for your team, you should say what the malware is, and why you're calling it that.
    - aniviacat 2y ago
      Windows 11 literally contains ads
      - recursive 2y ago
        Not saying it doesn't, but I've been using it daily for years, and at least haven't noticed them.
        Symbiote 2y ago
        You probably deactivated them, are using a corporate PC whose owner deactivated them, or live in a country Microsoft doesn't advertise in. The existence of the adverts is very widely reported in the technical press.
      - xnyan 2y ago
        I'm having to deal with increasingly pushy ads from Apple. Banner notifications with ads for their tv, news, game and music services, as well as fake alerts in the settings app that say some bullshit like "Setup required - signup for some icloud storage now!" I work at an outfit that uses RHEL, they absolutely inject ads for their services whenever you use a shell. Microsoft is the most distasteful, but it's matter of degrees for most OS vendors.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        Windows XP contained ads. It had a demo for a game suite bundled in it. It had so many references to Microsoft Passport. Its defaults were set to msn's website filled with ads. It was set up to easily get connected to certain ISPs out of the box. Windows Messenger often had ads and was bundled in it. Security Center pushed antivirus subscriptions. Windows Media Player had ads in it from time to time.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      The standard Windows first-run setup prompts with dark patterns to show advertising and send private data like keystrokes and microphone audio to Microsoft. It very strongly pushes the user to use a Microsoft account to sign in to their own computer. (This is my experience in the EU, so presumably the relatively polite version.) It seems reasonable to call this malware. It's what software like browser toolbars did 20 years ago, and they were widely criticised for it.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      Since at least XP, in my memory, and yes it is pretty easy to argue that every version has gotten worse. Some highlights: "Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 "Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 "Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in Windows Explorer" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 EDIT: And to finish the throughline back to XP, every version of Windows since then has included more "telemetry", which a perfectly reasonable person could describe as "spyware".
    - Out_of_Characte 2y ago
      I dont consider that an opinion anymore. You have to look at microsoft and windows from the perspective of an actual software product. Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush. Let that sink in. Either you accept that candy crush itself is malware preying on an innocent microsoft or there is a significant and hostile attempt by microsoft to push unwanted and distracting software onto consumers. Which is practically the definition of malware. You could add the countless other examples of advertisement and other unwanted behaviour that is not fit for an operating system and you'll find they fit the description of malware. If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        > If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is. It's whatever Dell and HP preloading McAfee is; which they've been doing in one way or another for decades.
        yellowapple 2y ago
        And for which they've also been widely criticized for the exact same reasons.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush Your argument wasn't really based in reality. Windows didn't have Candy Crush actually installed; it was a shortcut to get it from the store. And even then, we could rephrase that. Change "candy crush" to "mahjong titans" or "3D pinball" or "minesweeper" or "hover" or "hearts" or "solitaire" or "reversi", all games that were actually installed on a fresh install of Windows instead of just being a link to install it separately. Why aren't you then complaining about Reversi or Hover? Where was the outrage in the 1980s over this? Why is it such a big deal that its "candy crush"? Microsoft has been bundling in games to its operating systems since 1985. I don't get why people suddenly made a big deal about it when it became a shortcut to Candy Crush.
    - yellowapple 2y ago
      > People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. And they've been 100% correct in doing so since Vista or earlier.
      - recursive 2y ago
        Then a loss of support for 7 and 8 doesn't really mean much.
        yellowapple 2y ago
        Less baked-in malware is arguably better than more baked-in malware. But sure, a loss of support for 7 and 8 indeed doesn't mean much for those of us who've already migrated away from Windows.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - alephxyz 2y ago
      Okay here are the first few that come to mind: - displaying a full screen dialog on login asking me to enable OneDrive with options being: yes/remind me in 3 days/remind me in a week; - ads in start menu; - using MS Edge + bing for searches from the start menu, disregarding the default browser; - ditto but for Outlook links (at least this one can be disabled)! - different pop up/dialogs that prompt you to switch to Edge/Edge+copilot every few weeks
    - raxxorraxor 2y ago
      Nah, Win 11 introduced secure boot enforcement and forces you to use a Microsoft account. That is a new magnitude of enshitification. Even in corporate environments people get nervous. And yes, some aspects were better in older windows versions. MS itself decided they won't remove the control panel as advertised, because the settings app is just shitty or dysfunctional. This is beyond the level of shittyness that was Vista or Windows 8.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    > The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features Besides being extremely opinionated, remember the time Linux users were trying to say this about systemd? Now systemd is widely accepted except for the luddites at Devuan.
    - yallpendantools 2y ago
      I know the whole debate around systemd but I never knew people even considered it to be along the lines of malware. I checked Devuan (which I also just learned from your comment) and they say > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. which, okay, points towards that direction but I can't find what they exactly consider "unnecessary entanglements" nor what exactly means "Init Freedom". I'm genuinely curious, what exactly are people saying about systemd being "malware"?
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      I don't remember that, and I can't find any evidence of it. Some vocal users claimed Systemd was being forced upon them, or was taking over too much of the systems functions, or represented a loss of flexibility or choice, etc. (My opinion isn't relevant to your point.) No one was claiming it would maliciously interfere with the computer's security or the user's privacy.
  - npteljes 2y ago
    That's an issue with Windows in general, not just Win 10. Let's not pretend that 7 is any better on a moral level than what 10 represents. Among other things, I'm meaning updates to Win 7 like this one: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-tracking-microsoft-backports-privacy-invading-windows-10-features-to-windows-7-8 https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-...
- LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago
  It's pretty easy to get around Windows 11's CPU requirements, and the only new snag being the POPCNT instruction requirement introduced in 24H2. But if you don't have CPU that supports that you probably don't want to be running modern Windows anyways. If you really don't want to use Windows 11 (and I don't blame someone for that) Linux and Proton is truly amazing.
- MrLeap 2y ago
  I feel for the stubborn Win7 holdouts. Based on what I've seen of windows 11, I flat out refuse to install it. The ad/attention theft situation in 10 was already galling enough. 10 has become better after I found all the checkboxes to disable but the bad taste it left in my mouth has lingered. Hearing it gets even worse in 11 made me realize I want very badly to get off the dark pattern carousel. I sat down and really evaluated what ties me to windows. Not as much as in the past, it turns out. Unity/Godot have linux editors. I'll give Rider a try. Krita/Blender have first class linux support. Of the software I use regularly, the only things that are probably dead in the water are Embergen and Worldmachine. I don't even know if I want to maintain a win10 dual boot or a vm. I'm thinking I'll make a token attempt to get them running in wine, and if there's no play, I'll change my workflow. Both are great software packages, but such is life.
jpalawaga 2y ago
Interesting. Windows 7 is a number of years old, but doesn't feel that old in the grand scheme of things. It feels sort of crappy that those users are no longer able access the titles they paid to access.
- arka2147483647 2y ago
  Windows 7, released 2009. Thats 15 years. I would say that is a long stretch of support by any measure.
  - makapuf 2y ago
    I understand but 15 years old PC are well serviceable (even if not up to current specs), so why destroy them because they're unsupported ? We will need to be more conservative of resources and these PC can be used (think running starcraft 2 which I enjoy or other older nice PC games)
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    Initial release date is less interesting than when its last version/patch was released, which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7 puts at > Service Pack 1 with January 2023 monthly update rollup (6.1.7601.26321) / February 8, 2023; 21 months ago which isn't super recent but is pretty close.
  - bambax 2y ago
    But why? Why is it acceptable to consider OSes 15 years old ancient, when that logic never applied to almost any tool in the history of mankind, and still doesn't apply to any other category except software? In my home all the machines are 20+ years old and work perfectly fine (oven, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, irons...) not to mention things that don't need electricity, which are 30 or sometimes more than 80 years old (furniture but also cookware, etc.) A bike that's 20 years old feels ok and modern; a bike starts to really look ancient at maybe 50 years old? We can still drive cars made in the 80s and 90s (and they're often better than newer ones). Windows 7 works fine, why should it go to waste, and the machine it run on, and why should people be forced to upgrade and change or abandon all the little customisations they have set up that makes their lives easier? Don't we have better things to do with our time than relearn a new way to do the exact same thing? I understand the motivation of vendors to try and sell new things; what I don't get is why we put up with it.
textadventure 2y ago
This was long coming and announced (Steam had a big hard to miss warning whenever opened on Win 7, for pretty much the entire year), but yet another reminder that when it comes to digital libraries (of games, apps, music, movies, books, etc), your "ownership" of your titles is dependent on countless variables. Even though GOG's own client (GOG Galaxy) has been requiring Windows 10 for even longer, you could always just download the games from their website and manually install them no problem.
- exe34 2y ago
  not your (gpl) source code, not your game.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Even if that were possible, the GPL license makes no sense for artwork or music, and is quite possibly legally unenforceable in such a context. You need a combination of GPL + Commons; and how many games are licensed that way? But even then, GPL + Commons does not give you trademark rights, only the ability to reuse the assets under a different name. So unless you have GPL + Commons + Trademark, do you really have ownership? But hold on, in Japan and in the US, game mechanics can be patented. So who cares if you have the code, assets, and trademark, if you don't have patent rights? I suppose you need GPL + Commons + Trademarks + Patent Assignment; or maybe you swap out GPL with Apache2. Now hopefully whoever made the artwork doesn't sue for unpaid royalties. You're relying on the declared licenses, but it's still possible that whoever made the game, lied in one way or another. It's also possible there are applicable patents owned by other companies, which weren't disclosed. The point is: Even with GPL code, it's still a long way from being "your game." I didn't even mention the middleware like Havok Physics or Unity Engine; which would render your GPL game code pretty useless without a proprietary attachment, if using the GPL license at all is even legal with such a combination.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      All of that is possible to solve: https://itch.io/jam/free-software-purism-game-jam https://itch.io/jam/free-software-purism-game-jam
LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago
Honestly, for users affected I wonder if switching to Linux and using Proton is a suitable alternative. I've been using Pop OS and Steam on my gaming rig for a few weeks and it works incredibly well! I've been playing the new Horizon Zero Dawn Remastered and haven't had any major issues. The only reason I keep Windows around in a dual boot setup is because of Fortnite
- Arch485 2y ago
  I got so fed up with Windows 11 and Microsoft's BS that I bought a new PC with an AMD processor and GPU so I could daily drive Linux (for context, NVIDIA hates open source and so there aren't any good drivers on Linux). I've been running most of my games through Proton, and the experience is flawless. Only game that hasn't worked for me is Rust because of some EAC requirements.
  - npteljes 2y ago
    Same for me, but I dual-boot Linux and Win 10 LTSC. I try everything on Linux first, and if it doesn't work well enough (Space Engineers) or has anti-cheat (Rainbow 6 Siege), then I use the Win 10 as a fallback.
    - LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago
      Same here! I literally only have Windows 10 LTSC because Fortnite requires EAC. I'd even use Windows 11 LTSC but for some reason I can't switch my Bluetooth headphones between headphone and headset mode, which I need in order to use Discord and also hear game audio at the same time, like I can in Windows 10.
- mjevans 2y ago
  Classic games probably work mostly well at this point. https://www.protondb.com/ https://www.protondb.com/ It'd be nice if SteamOS had more recent versions for normal PCs. Arch Linux is sufficient for a developer or power user, but for the average person is too painful. Debian Stable (most recent update) should be a generally good experience for any PC that ran Windows 7 naively. Though I do worry about some specific hardware, mostly nVidia GPUs retaining support for that long, at least the old drivers will probably work?
tmountain 2y ago
I feel like I am getting so old. Windows 7 still feels like a “new” OS to me.
- Out_of_Characte 2y ago
  Windows 7 was the last good OS that came out of microsoft for me. I would honestly switch from linux to windows 7 if they provided support.
  - AcerbicZero 2y ago
    I wouldn't mind going back, but I can't re-live the horrors of windows 8 or 8.1 ever again.
est 2y ago
I'd bet the main culprit is the Chromium library
ryandrake 2y ago
> You should still be able to continue gaming on your system as long as you don't forcibly update Steam, though how long that remains possible remains to be seen. This is always the question when "drops support" comes up: Will users be able to at least stick with the older version of Steam, and just not take updates, or will users get hit with the usual shitty modern software catch 22: You can't use the software because it's not the latest version, and you can't get the latest version. I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  >> I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky. I totally agree, but also disagree. I worked at a large corporation that designed and built lawn maintenance equipment. It sold both commercial and retail products. I worked there as a front-end developer. This was in the mid aughts when it had already been 5-6 years since companies had dropped support for it and developers were already migrating to Chrome and Firefox. I was told everything I coded had to have backward compatibility with get this. . . . .IE 6. They said they had several vendors in China and overseas and the only way they could order their stuff was on a site that still worked in IE6. It was more or less just an order form they would print out, fill in, and then fax to our office for fulfillment. It was probably the most mind numbingly stupid experience I was put through and it felt like torture telling your dev friends you're still dealing with having to code stuff for IE6. So yes, I agree, but we should at least have some kind of limitation on how long a company needs to support their software since it eventually ends up costing the company a lot of time and energy. The company I worked for had spent a lot of money to deal with all the issues associated with supporting IE6. Developer churn was pretty high because devs would get there and think they were having to work at some clown show because this company had made the decision to stick with this very outdated technology. So yes, I agree we need regulation, but we also need some decent guard rails so what happened to me at the above company doesn't continue to happen.
SG- 2y ago
Unless I'm mistaken too, the macOS Steam client is still Intel only after all this time. It's not a huge market but I find it kind of weird since there's many Apple Silicon games on Steam for sale.
- jjcm 2y ago
  This too is my biggest request. It's also surprising how many resources the client itself takes. That said, given the stats I agree with their prioritization. OSX makes up 1.39% of their market share: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw... Linux has a higher market share than OSX (likely due to the Steam deck, but still I was surprised by this). I actually think this is something Apple should be taking the lead on, rather than Steam. It's clear that they value gaming on their devices, they just invest so little in it. Input latency is still poor and there are still big hiccups in frame rates which make competitive games on OSX a non-starter. If Apple invested more here and partnered with Steam, they could make some significant headways. Apple seems to want to avoid partnership here though (ie the prior vulkan vs metal issues).
  - brian-armstrong 2y ago
    Steve Jobs was famously anti-gaming. That presumably still leaves a lot of leftover sentiment within Apple.
    - SG- 2y ago
      he's been dead a while now and they've clearly put some focus in games and have moved on to new products too since that decision was made (iPhones weren't even a thing back then).
  - brodock 2y ago
    Why would Valve help Apple get marketshare (in the gaming category), when they can put the same effort into getting the games published to Linux (and the Steam Deck).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AcerbicZero 2y ago
I like how were still re-living the classic MS 'every other OS is kinda ok' pattern. 95? Pretty ok. Idk, I didn't use it, I just watched my dad install it via like 25 floppy disks so we could play Tom Clancys SSN game. Worth it. 98? Kinda bad. Wasn't this the one to BSOD during the MS demo? Or was that ME? 2000/NT? Good. I know I kinda jumped between desktop and server OS's here, but hey, thats what I was doing with my life at the time. ME? Bad. Might have BSOD'd during a MS demo. XP? Good. 2003? Not great. Another server OS, but come on, it really helps the pattern, and what did 2003 bring that we didn't already have in 2000? Plus, 2003 really hated the upgrade path to 2008/R2 so I'm counting it. Win7? Good. Win8/8.1? So, very, very bad. Win10? Good-ish. At least, after like, 12 months of updates and if you tear out all the nonsense ads + fix the start menu. Win11? Cancer.
- LorenDB 2y ago
  Windows 98 was the one to BSOD during a demo: https://www.neowin.net/news/the-infamous-windows-98-blue-screen-of-death-event-happened-25-years-ago-today/ https://www.neowin.net/news/the-infamous-windows-98-blue-scr... Also, you should replace Windows Server 2003 with Windows Vista, as it is generally considered an unmitigated catastrophe.
- npteljes 2y ago
  95 was very bad for me, I had to reinstall it on my PC like every week, because it was just unstable. Vista is also not great, and it's missing from your list. XP was also very, very bad first, and got better over the years with its service packs.

63 points by LorenDB 2y ago

This could be interesting, though it became less so after they dropped Vista in my experience. Currently, people can upgrade to Windows 10 or 11 for free. The main issue for many, however, is that Windows 11 only supports certain CPUs. As a result, many users with systems powerful enough for the games they play on their system that are already beyond the required specs will see themselves forced into an upgrade they would not otherwise need, want, and perhaps afford.

alephxyz 2y ago
The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features
- recursive 2y ago
  That's just like... your opinion man. People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. If you really want to communicate with someone and not just score points for your team, you should say what the malware is, and why you're calling it that.
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    Windows 11 literally contains ads
    - recursive 2y ago
      Not saying it doesn't, but I've been using it daily for years, and at least haven't noticed them.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        You probably deactivated them, are using a corporate PC whose owner deactivated them, or live in a country Microsoft doesn't advertise in. The existence of the adverts is very widely reported in the technical press.
    - xnyan 2y ago
      I'm having to deal with increasingly pushy ads from Apple. Banner notifications with ads for their tv, news, game and music services, as well as fake alerts in the settings app that say some bullshit like "Setup required - signup for some icloud storage now!" I work at an outfit that uses RHEL, they absolutely inject ads for their services whenever you use a shell. Microsoft is the most distasteful, but it's matter of degrees for most OS vendors.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Windows XP contained ads. It had a demo for a game suite bundled in it. It had so many references to Microsoft Passport. Its defaults were set to msn's website filled with ads. It was set up to easily get connected to certain ISPs out of the box. Windows Messenger often had ads and was bundled in it. Security Center pushed antivirus subscriptions. Windows Media Player had ads in it from time to time.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    The standard Windows first-run setup prompts with dark patterns to show advertising and send private data like keystrokes and microphone audio to Microsoft. It very strongly pushes the user to use a Microsoft account to sign in to their own computer. (This is my experience in the EU, so presumably the relatively polite version.) It seems reasonable to call this malware. It's what software like browser toolbars did 20 years ago, and they were widely criticised for it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    Since at least XP, in my memory, and yes it is pretty easy to argue that every version has gotten worse. Some highlights: "Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382 "Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332 "Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in Windows Explorer" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277 EDIT: And to finish the throughline back to XP, every version of Windows since then has included more "telemetry", which a perfectly reasonable person could describe as "spyware".
  - Out_of_Characte 2y ago
    I dont consider that an opinion anymore. You have to look at microsoft and windows from the perspective of an actual software product. Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush. Let that sink in. Either you accept that candy crush itself is malware preying on an innocent microsoft or there is a significant and hostile attempt by microsoft to push unwanted and distracting software onto consumers. Which is practically the definition of malware. You could add the countless other examples of advertisement and other unwanted behaviour that is not fit for an operating system and you'll find they fit the description of malware. If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      > If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is. It's whatever Dell and HP preloading McAfee is; which they've been doing in one way or another for decades.
      - yellowapple 2y ago
        And for which they've also been widely criticized for the exact same reasons.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush Your argument wasn't really based in reality. Windows didn't have Candy Crush actually installed; it was a shortcut to get it from the store. And even then, we could rephrase that. Change "candy crush" to "mahjong titans" or "3D pinball" or "minesweeper" or "hover" or "hearts" or "solitaire" or "reversi", all games that were actually installed on a fresh install of Windows instead of just being a link to install it separately. Why aren't you then complaining about Reversi or Hover? Where was the outrage in the 1980s over this? Why is it such a big deal that its "candy crush"? Microsoft has been bundling in games to its operating systems since 1985. I don't get why people suddenly made a big deal about it when it became a shortcut to Candy Crush.
  - yellowapple 2y ago
    > People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. And they've been 100% correct in doing so since Vista or earlier.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Then a loss of support for 7 and 8 doesn't really mean much.
      - yellowapple 2y ago
        Less baked-in malware is arguably better than more baked-in malware. But sure, a loss of support for 7 and 8 indeed doesn't mean much for those of us who've already migrated away from Windows.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - alephxyz 2y ago
    Okay here are the first few that come to mind: - displaying a full screen dialog on login asking me to enable OneDrive with options being: yes/remind me in 3 days/remind me in a week; - ads in start menu; - using MS Edge + bing for searches from the start menu, disregarding the default browser; - ditto but for Outlook links (at least this one can be disabled)! - different pop up/dialogs that prompt you to switch to Edge/Edge+copilot every few weeks
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    Nah, Win 11 introduced secure boot enforcement and forces you to use a Microsoft account. That is a new magnitude of enshitification. Even in corporate environments people get nervous. And yes, some aspects were better in older windows versions. MS itself decided they won't remove the control panel as advertised, because the settings app is just shitty or dysfunctional. This is beyond the level of shittyness that was Vista or Windows 8.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features Besides being extremely opinionated, remember the time Linux users were trying to say this about systemd? Now systemd is widely accepted except for the luddites at Devuan.
  - yallpendantools 2y ago
    I know the whole debate around systemd but I never knew people even considered it to be along the lines of malware. I checked Devuan (which I also just learned from your comment) and they say > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. which, okay, points towards that direction but I can't find what they exactly consider "unnecessary entanglements" nor what exactly means "Init Freedom". I'm genuinely curious, what exactly are people saying about systemd being "malware"?
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I don't remember that, and I can't find any evidence of it. Some vocal users claimed Systemd was being forced upon them, or was taking over too much of the systems functions, or represented a loss of flexibility or choice, etc. (My opinion isn't relevant to your point.) No one was claiming it would maliciously interfere with the computer's security or the user's privacy.
- npteljes 2y ago
  That's an issue with Windows in general, not just Win 10. Let's not pretend that 7 is any better on a moral level than what 10 represents. Among other things, I'm meaning updates to Win 7 like this one: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-tracking-microsoft-backports-privacy-invading-windows-10-features-to-windows-7-8 https://www.extremetech.com/computing/213183-once-more-with-...
LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago
It's pretty easy to get around Windows 11's CPU requirements, and the only new snag being the POPCNT instruction requirement introduced in 24H2. But if you don't have CPU that supports that you probably don't want to be running modern Windows anyways. If you really don't want to use Windows 11 (and I don't blame someone for that) Linux and Proton is truly amazing.
MrLeap 2y ago
I feel for the stubborn Win7 holdouts. Based on what I've seen of windows 11, I flat out refuse to install it. The ad/attention theft situation in 10 was already galling enough. 10 has become better after I found all the checkboxes to disable but the bad taste it left in my mouth has lingered. Hearing it gets even worse in 11 made me realize I want very badly to get off the dark pattern carousel. I sat down and really evaluated what ties me to windows. Not as much as in the past, it turns out. Unity/Godot have linux editors. I'll give Rider a try. Krita/Blender have first class linux support. Of the software I use regularly, the only things that are probably dead in the water are Embergen and Worldmachine. I don't even know if I want to maintain a win10 dual boot or a vm. I'm thinking I'll make a token attempt to get them running in wine, and if there's no play, I'll change my workflow. Both are great software packages, but such is life.

jpalawaga 2y ago

Interesting. Windows 7 is a number of years old, but doesn't feel that old in the grand scheme of things. It feels sort of crappy that those users are no longer able access the titles they paid to access.

arka2147483647 2y ago
Windows 7, released 2009. Thats 15 years. I would say that is a long stretch of support by any measure.
- makapuf 2y ago
  I understand but 15 years old PC are well serviceable (even if not up to current specs), so why destroy them because they're unsupported ? We will need to be more conservative of resources and these PC can be used (think running starcraft 2 which I enjoy or other older nice PC games)
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Initial release date is less interesting than when its last version/patch was released, which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7 puts at > Service Pack 1 with January 2023 monthly update rollup (6.1.7601.26321) / February 8, 2023; 21 months ago which isn't super recent but is pretty close.
- bambax 2y ago
  But why? Why is it acceptable to consider OSes 15 years old ancient, when that logic never applied to almost any tool in the history of mankind, and still doesn't apply to any other category except software? In my home all the machines are 20+ years old and work perfectly fine (oven, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, irons...) not to mention things that don't need electricity, which are 30 or sometimes more than 80 years old (furniture but also cookware, etc.) A bike that's 20 years old feels ok and modern; a bike starts to really look ancient at maybe 50 years old? We can still drive cars made in the 80s and 90s (and they're often better than newer ones). Windows 7 works fine, why should it go to waste, and the machine it run on, and why should people be forced to upgrade and change or abandon all the little customisations they have set up that makes their lives easier? Don't we have better things to do with our time than relearn a new way to do the exact same thing? I understand the motivation of vendors to try and sell new things; what I don't get is why we put up with it.

textadventure 2y ago

This was long coming and announced (Steam had a big hard to miss warning whenever opened on Win 7, for pretty much the entire year), but yet another reminder that when it comes to digital libraries (of games, apps, music, movies, books, etc), your "ownership" of your titles is dependent on countless variables. Even though GOG's own client (GOG Galaxy) has been requiring Windows 10 for even longer, you could always just download the games from their website and manually install them no problem.

exe34 2y ago
not your (gpl) source code, not your game.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Even if that were possible, the GPL license makes no sense for artwork or music, and is quite possibly legally unenforceable in such a context. You need a combination of GPL + Commons; and how many games are licensed that way? But even then, GPL + Commons does not give you trademark rights, only the ability to reuse the assets under a different name. So unless you have GPL + Commons + Trademark, do you really have ownership? But hold on, in Japan and in the US, game mechanics can be patented. So who cares if you have the code, assets, and trademark, if you don't have patent rights? I suppose you need GPL + Commons + Trademarks + Patent Assignment; or maybe you swap out GPL with Apache2. Now hopefully whoever made the artwork doesn't sue for unpaid royalties. You're relying on the declared licenses, but it's still possible that whoever made the game, lied in one way or another. It's also possible there are applicable patents owned by other companies, which weren't disclosed. The point is: Even with GPL code, it's still a long way from being "your game." I didn't even mention the middleware like Havok Physics or Unity Engine; which would render your GPL game code pretty useless without a proprietary attachment, if using the GPL license at all is even legal with such a combination.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    All of that is possible to solve: https://itch.io/jam/free-software-purism-game-jam https://itch.io/jam/free-software-purism-game-jam

LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago

Honestly, for users affected I wonder if switching to Linux and using Proton is a suitable alternative. I've been using Pop OS and Steam on my gaming rig for a few weeks and it works incredibly well! I've been playing the new Horizon Zero Dawn Remastered and haven't had any major issues. The only reason I keep Windows around in a dual boot setup is because of Fortnite

Arch485 2y ago
I got so fed up with Windows 11 and Microsoft's BS that I bought a new PC with an AMD processor and GPU so I could daily drive Linux (for context, NVIDIA hates open source and so there aren't any good drivers on Linux). I've been running most of my games through Proton, and the experience is flawless. Only game that hasn't worked for me is Rust because of some EAC requirements.
- npteljes 2y ago
  Same for me, but I dual-boot Linux and Win 10 LTSC. I try everything on Linux first, and if it doesn't work well enough (Space Engineers) or has anti-cheat (Rainbow 6 Siege), then I use the Win 10 as a fallback.
  - LetsGetTechnicl 2y ago
    Same here! I literally only have Windows 10 LTSC because Fortnite requires EAC. I'd even use Windows 11 LTSC but for some reason I can't switch my Bluetooth headphones between headphone and headset mode, which I need in order to use Discord and also hear game audio at the same time, like I can in Windows 10.
mjevans 2y ago
Classic games probably work mostly well at this point. https://www.protondb.com/ https://www.protondb.com/ It'd be nice if SteamOS had more recent versions for normal PCs. Arch Linux is sufficient for a developer or power user, but for the average person is too painful. Debian Stable (most recent update) should be a generally good experience for any PC that ran Windows 7 naively. Though I do worry about some specific hardware, mostly nVidia GPUs retaining support for that long, at least the old drivers will probably work?

tmountain 2y ago

I feel like I am getting so old. Windows 7 still feels like a “new” OS to me.

Out_of_Characte 2y ago
Windows 7 was the last good OS that came out of microsoft for me. I would honestly switch from linux to windows 7 if they provided support.
- AcerbicZero 2y ago
  I wouldn't mind going back, but I can't re-live the horrors of windows 8 or 8.1 ever again.

est 2y ago

I'd bet the main culprit is the Chromium library

ryandrake 2y ago

> You should still be able to continue gaming on your system as long as you don't forcibly update Steam, though how long that remains possible remains to be seen. This is always the question when "drops support" comes up: Will users be able to at least stick with the older version of Steam, and just not take updates, or will users get hit with the usual shitty modern software catch 22: You can't use the software because it's not the latest version, and you can't get the latest version. I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky.

burningChrome 2y ago
>> I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky. I totally agree, but also disagree. I worked at a large corporation that designed and built lawn maintenance equipment. It sold both commercial and retail products. I worked there as a front-end developer. This was in the mid aughts when it had already been 5-6 years since companies had dropped support for it and developers were already migrating to Chrome and Firefox. I was told everything I coded had to have backward compatibility with get this. . . . .IE 6. They said they had several vendors in China and overseas and the only way they could order their stuff was on a site that still worked in IE6. It was more or less just an order form they would print out, fill in, and then fax to our office for fulfillment. It was probably the most mind numbingly stupid experience I was put through and it felt like torture telling your dev friends you're still dealing with having to code stuff for IE6. So yes, I agree, but we should at least have some kind of limitation on how long a company needs to support their software since it eventually ends up costing the company a lot of time and energy. The company I worked for had spent a lot of money to deal with all the issues associated with supporting IE6. Developer churn was pretty high because devs would get there and think they were having to work at some clown show because this company had made the decision to stick with this very outdated technology. So yes, I agree we need regulation, but we also need some decent guard rails so what happened to me at the above company doesn't continue to happen.

SG- 2y ago

Unless I'm mistaken too, the macOS Steam client is still Intel only after all this time. It's not a huge market but I find it kind of weird since there's many Apple Silicon games on Steam for sale.

jjcm 2y ago
This too is my biggest request. It's also surprising how many resources the client itself takes. That said, given the stats I agree with their prioritization. OSX makes up 1.39% of their market share: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw... Linux has a higher market share than OSX (likely due to the Steam deck, but still I was surprised by this). I actually think this is something Apple should be taking the lead on, rather than Steam. It's clear that they value gaming on their devices, they just invest so little in it. Input latency is still poor and there are still big hiccups in frame rates which make competitive games on OSX a non-starter. If Apple invested more here and partnered with Steam, they could make some significant headways. Apple seems to want to avoid partnership here though (ie the prior vulkan vs metal issues).
- brian-armstrong 2y ago
  Steve Jobs was famously anti-gaming. That presumably still leaves a lot of leftover sentiment within Apple.
  - SG- 2y ago
    he's been dead a while now and they've clearly put some focus in games and have moved on to new products too since that decision was made (iPhones weren't even a thing back then).
- brodock 2y ago
  Why would Valve help Apple get marketshare (in the gaming category), when they can put the same effort into getting the games published to Linux (and the Steam Deck).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

AcerbicZero 2y ago

I like how were still re-living the classic MS 'every other OS is kinda ok' pattern. 95? Pretty ok. Idk, I didn't use it, I just watched my dad install it via like 25 floppy disks so we could play Tom Clancys SSN game. Worth it. 98? Kinda bad. Wasn't this the one to BSOD during the MS demo? Or was that ME? 2000/NT? Good. I know I kinda jumped between desktop and server OS's here, but hey, thats what I was doing with my life at the time. ME? Bad. Might have BSOD'd during a MS demo. XP? Good. 2003? Not great. Another server OS, but come on, it really helps the pattern, and what did 2003 bring that we didn't already have in 2000? Plus, 2003 really hated the upgrade path to 2008/R2 so I'm counting it. Win7? Good. Win8/8.1? So, very, very bad. Win10? Good-ish. At least, after like, 12 months of updates and if you tear out all the nonsense ads + fix the start menu. Win11? Cancer.

LorenDB 2y ago
Windows 98 was the one to BSOD during a demo: https://www.neowin.net/news/the-infamous-windows-98-blue-screen-of-death-event-happened-25-years-ago-today/ https://www.neowin.net/news/the-infamous-windows-98-blue-scr... Also, you should replace Windows Server 2003 with Windows Vista, as it is generally considered an unmitigated catastrophe.
npteljes 2y ago
95 was very bad for me, I had to reinstall it on my PC like every week, because it was just unstable. Vista is also not great, and it's missing from your list. XP was also very, very bad first, and got better over the years with its service packs.