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Der Spiegel Proclaims the End of the West
- keepamovin 2y agoSo I guess the four Horsemen of the apocalypse are Donald Trump, RFK Jr, JD Vance and Vivek Ramaswamy?
- djkivi 2y agoCan’t forget Elon.
- nobody9999 2y ago>Can’t forget Elon. I try very hard to do so. And mostly I succeed until someone (this time you) brings him up.
- keepamovin 2y agoBoo hoo
- jauntywundrkind 2y agoIt sure seems likely that the rest of the world is going to shy away from an America proudly trumpeting America First. this insulting schtick of mean cruel losers is not going to be a dignified model for the world to work together through problems on. The chance to be a respectable force in the world is going to be deeply hampered, and the states like a Russia and China are going to be beyond joy to watch us look like such absolute rubes and fools.
- asdasdsddd 2y agoOr maybe they're mad that there's no more free lunch. Asking NATO to pay their fair share was fair. Imposing tariffs on China because they were devaluing their currency was fair. I didn't see anyone prominent talking about this before the America First people. The piece de resistance was when Europeans laughed when Trump asked them to spend more on defense only to be caught entirely off guard when Ukraine was invaded.
- The_Colonel 2y ago> Asking NATO to pay their fair share was fair. Imposing tariffs on China because they were devaluing their currency was fair. "fair" has little relevance in geopolitics. Spending on military used to be politically difficult in Europe and US has so far decided to be lenient on the 2% rule since pressing the issue would achieve little but burning the relationship and thus influence. Choose your battles wisely, apply your limited political capital where it has the biggest impact. This 2% rule is likely not it. In general, the international relationships will get more transactional and "multi-polar". One probably unintentional effect is that Europe will get closer to China, not bound by loyalty to US, and thus doing more fence-sitting. (China is a much bigger concern in US than in Europe)
- asdasdsddd 2y agoFair is when the participating countries do not meet the spending they agreed to
- The_Colonel 2y agoSure, it's not fair, but that's irrelevant. The real dilemma is - will pressing this issue hard have positive or negative effects on the future US strategic position? It's not just the GDP percentage which is on the line, you can't isolate it from the rest of the relationship. I'll use an analogy from my personal life. A friend is consistently late to meet ups. It bothers me, since I'm losing time by showing up on time. It's clearly not fair. When I bring it up, he apologizes, but ultimately his lack of punctuality never changes. Now I could go hard on him - give him ultimatums, send reminders before the meetup etc. The question is - will I be able to change him and get him punctual? Is it possible I will seriously harm or even destroy the relationship by continually pressing this apparent weakness of his?
- thunky 2y agoYou can show up later than him. Disrespect his time the same way he disrespects yours. That would be "fair". Or, try not to work with him anymore.
- dfedbeef 2y agoLook like?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pjbk 2y agohttps://archive.is/0Ldfn https://archive.is/0Ldfn
- gizajob 2y agoSomewhat hyperbolic…
- keepamovin 2y agoNo, I’d say it’s revealing because the people who genuinely believe in the ideology espoused in this article truly hold these ideals. To them, this must feel like the end of the West, as they’ve known it. Because to them, the West was defined by the institutions and systems built in the post-war era. What strikes me about the picture painted by the author is how much it seems to miss—or entirely ignore—many important factors. These include the challenges of integration, the burdens of mass migration, the distinction between legal migration and open borders policy, and the failure to address how such policies, even if well-intentioned, can be exploited for slave labor, human trafficking, and voter manipulation. There’s also the uninspired and unsustainable approach to reducing inflation and the cost of living by importing ultra-cheap labor, instead of investing in forward-thinking development projects that actually benefit citizens. It feels almost myopic how much the focus remains on avoiding the mistakes of the authoritarian and fascist World War II era. In their quest for salvation and redemption, there’s an overcorrection that disregards essential social, economic, political, and institutional factors necessary for effective progress and development. Maybe it’s not so bad if it’s indeed true that this post world war II, reactionary, but tunnel visioned, definition of the West has died. The specific issues raised by this article and larger context tho are irrelevant to another trend: an innovative, new organizing model for the West is an idea whose time has come.
- anotherhue 2y agoIt feels like we used to invest in infrastructure, but never wanted to pay the maintenance. And now we mostly invest in ideology or other intangible things that don't offer much return. There are a lot of silly policies from foreign intervention to corporate protectionism (coal, corn, healthcare, communications) that could be improved, not to mention the housing situation. I think the west will have to get more practical and less performative.
- rockemsockem 2y agoI wonder if they think having credible, believable sources of news would have helped prevent the end
- Rinzler89 2y agoDe Spiegel lost its credibility long ago. It's been only parroting luxury beliefs and theatrics revolving how Elon is Trump and how Trump is the next Hitler and the end of democracy while ignoring the real issues.
- bamboozled 2y agoBingo.
- jey 2y agoFeels to me like it should read "End of the West's Hegemony" -- or more to the point, the end of US hegemony.
- yokaze 2y agoI think, that's the part from the article, which states its message succinctly: > The West as a block of liberal democracies no longer exists.
- WillPostForFood 2y agoMeanwhile, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, "We Have to Deport People More Often and Faster."
- bamboozled 2y agoRemember when immigration was going to save the west? Not enough kids, we need workers, etc etc. I'm so sick of the hypocrisy and politics in general. Everything is a lie, and then when we make progress, like on climate change, someone get elected and smashed it down for another 4 years.
- Rinzler89 2y agoThose in power who decide for mass immigration policies don't live in places that are affected by their decisions, they live in upper class gated communities with prices so high they're unaccessible to average people to move in, their kids don't go to those schools, etc. All luxury beliefs of idealists shielded from the real world. Basically, it's easy to be charitable with other people's lives and money from your ivory tower. At least the US got some good policies now but Germany is doubling down on more illegal immigration while ignoring the downsides.
- The_Colonel 2y agoI'm starting to realize that after good times, bad times almost inevitably has to come. Good times are created by people who lived through bad times wanting to improve. But now most people were born into good times, not remembering the bad. People today don't remember children dying from preventable diseases before the vaccination, so they don't fear the diseases. Women don't remember not having reproductive rights, so they don't fear not having them. (Most) people didn't lose their relatives in bloody wars, so they don't fear escalation, brinkmanship.
- bamboozled 2y agoStrongly agree. Complacency. "Why do we need allies?" Reading the younger peoples comments on the JoeRogan sub-reddit is quite validating and inline with your reasoning in my opinion. I think most young people were lied to but they believe it because as you said, they don't know any better.
- deepfriedchokes 2y agoStrauss–Howe generational theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generatio...
- ugiox 2y ago“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” (from a postapocalyptic novel by the author G. Michael Hopf)
- yawpitch 2y ago… wow, interesting find, an entire, shockingly prolific, oeuvre seemingly in its entirety dedicated to and authored for weak, fearful men that really want to believe they were once strong.
- bloppe 2y agoThe biggest problem with democracy these days is a failure of education. According to Trump, the American economy is in shambles, Kamala wanted to imprison normal Republican voters, and cats and dogs are rapidly being hunted to extinction. The list goes on and on: fake pandemic, stolen election, migrant crime wave, space lasers, stable genius, not obese, "there wouldn't be a war" etc etc etc Here's the thing: we don't equip far too many of our citizens with the ability to sniff out these lies. I think there are other countries that do a better job, notably Finland which has been effectively dealing with large scale Russian misinformation for a long time, but clearly this problem is not unique to America. Most trump voters actually value freedom, equal opportunity, fair rules i.e. liberal values. But they've been brainwashed to the point that liberal is a dirty word and everyone else is out to get them. Either they come to their senses, or we all go down with them. I'm hoping we can take the former route without too much catastrophe first
- drawfloat 2y agoThe number one issue people say motivated them to vote for Trump/Boris/Wilders/et al is “cost of living”. Ie: wages have been falling behind for decades now. The other issues may play in to it, but that only keeps the wheels on the cart for so long. 2024 we’re finally seeing the complete aversion to solving the cost of living crisis that has developed since the 90s become no longer avoidable. I worry from a lot of responses from US democrats (and British Labour, and…) that we’re in for a rough ride because they fundamentally will never countenance that. It’s always an issue with the voter (education, Russia, misinformation, racism) instead. As the piece said, pointing to GDP, economic data and saying things are actually good, while overlooking that this masks economic inequality is not engaging with that issue. Edit: to clarify, this is not a dig at you. I have also continued to vote for centre left parties that ignored this inconvenient fact, doing little about house prices, wages, etc. But this can't continue if we don't want to see ever more authoritarian leaders.
- bloppe 2y agoThis is actually also a lie (at least in America). Real income (after adjusting for inflation) has been rising at the median [1]. The bottom quintile got reamed by Covid but have been the biggest beneficiaries of inflation [2] (which tends to be bad only for people with savings) and the covid slump was more than compensated for by stimmy checks [3]. The Gini coefficient has been pretty stable since 1990. There's only a cost of living crisis in cities with epic nimby-induced housing shortages, but most Americans don't live in those cities. [1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [2]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXU900000LB0102M https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXU900000LB0102M [3]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUINCAFTTXLB0102M https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUINCAFTTXLB0102M
- LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago[flagged]
- zxcb1 2y agoFinancialization — financial capitalism is not productive, it's extractive; eventually the host succumbs. China, on the other hand ...
- bamboozled 2y agoChina also seems to have a sort of exciting world view in my opinion, belt and road, massive renewables investment, EVs, Nuclear. The USA seems like it's going backwards. I think it will be harder to China to succeed without America, but I don't think it's impossible. Plenty of countries who will trade with them.
- spwa4 2y agoExcept China IS doing financial engineering on a huge scale, creating the problems the West has. Except, they're not creating those problems over the course of a century or two, but a decade. They've had 2 massive crashes now and are currently having a 2008-style financial crisis. And, of course, it turns out that the impressive control of the central government of China is worth nothing as soon as it means local politicians get any less money at any point. The most recent WTF coming out of China: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/08/business/china-stimulus-economy-debt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/08/business/china-stimulus-e...
- bamboozled 2y agoThat seems valid. I have a sort of cynical view of the world which is that, governments make a huge fuss, like as if they're in control of everything, but it's really just people getting up, working and muddling through life to keep the electricity on, children growing and the food on the table that keeps everything going. If something gets in the way of that, like a plague, or total financial collapse the country is fucked. Many governments are just a parasite that feeds off the hard work of regular people. If this is the start of the money supply collapse, then that's something else entirely.
- JSDevOps 2y agoToo much leveraged debt and too many people doing useless jobs leaving everything real to someone else.
- amai 2y ago„The resulting impression was that center-left parties did too little for workers, for the center of society.“ That might be true. But the right-wing parties on the rise will do even less for the workers.
- CrispyKerosene 2y agobut they are excellent at selling the opposite. Its amazing the average citizen cant look past a campaign catch phrase to the underlying values of the ideology, or demonstrated policy decisions
- amai 2y agoRight-wing parties are even selling themselves as revolutionary and "against the system". But nothing could be further from the truth. Revolutionary would be to stop using oil, gas and coal (and nuclear) for energy generation. It would be revolutionary to invest into public transport instead of building car dependent cities. Similarly demanding public code and open science for public money would increase transparency and outcome for the tax payers a lot. Destroying market monopolies and making sure we have a fair competition on the markets would be revolutionary. Stop making money by doing business with dictatorships is totally against the system of "money doesn't stink". And it would be absolutely against the "system of the rich" to demand high wealth and inheritance taxes (or at least a financial transaction tax) to make sure everyone has a fair chance in his life. In the end if you demand equality for women and men, that would be a social revolution humanity hasn't heard of since Adam and Eve. None of these are goals of right-wing parties. The left-wing, woke, green, liberal parties are the really revolutionaries in our world. What they demand has never be tried before. That is risky and right-wing voters are in fact afraid of these disruptive changes.